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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    Thank you for the responses XtraPickels.

    The only time I feel really really satiated is after breakfast. 3-4 eggs cooked in Coco oil, was doing 3-4 pieces of bacon daily but too much bad fat I think (?) so I switched to turkey sausage links or patties. Sometimes elk breakfast sausage (but I am getting burned out cause I had way too much of it with the elk I shot last year). GF oatmeal with grassfed butter and a little honey. Coffee with unsweetened coconut creamer.

    I realize I need lots of carbs especially on hard workout days, ride days, race days.......but I want a six pack. Total vanity. We touched on this before in another thread I think. Is it as simple as more protein and even more workout? .
    Indeed, thanks XtraPickels for the many detailed responses!

    It's really amazing how powerful the anti-carb marketing can be. I regularly see ads on YouTube claiming that even cardio is bad. I guess people keep wanting a silver bullet. As LA once said "What am I on? I'm on my bike, 6 hours a day." (Yes, I know he was also on drugs, but the point is sound.)

    You're not helping your cause with those high fat/protein low carb breakfasts. The choice you frame between having a six pack and eating carbs is just incorrect. The simple fact is that if you're doing hours of endurance exercise daily, carbs will be your main fuel. You need to fuel up earlier in the day and eat a shitload of vegetables with some protein later. If you're eating a decent, mostly plant based diet, you will get enough protein.

    I also disagree with the whole fat adaptation thing for most athletes. As Pickels said, it might be good for really extreme distance stuff where intensity is really low, but no one here has even mentioned an interest in that. Your body wants carbs to fuel its muscles, so why not give them to it?

    Lastly, WG, how much alcohol are you drinking? If it's more than 1 beer a day, cutting that down will help a lot in your quest to get ripped.
    Last edited by climberevan; 03-15-2021 at 09:30 AM.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Indeed, thanks XtraPickels for the many details responses!

    It's really amazing how powerful the anti-carb marketing can be. I regularly see ads on YouTube claiming that even cardio is bad. I guess people keep wanting a silver bullet. As LA once said "What am I on? I'm on my bike, 6 hours a day." (Yes, I know he was also on drugs, but the point is sound.)

    You're not helping your cause with those high fat/protein low carb breakfasts. The choice you frame between having a six pack and eating carbs is just incorrect. The simple fact is that if you're doing hours of endurance exercise daily, carbs will be your main fuel. You need to fuel up earlier in the day and eat a shitload of vegetables with some protein later. If you're eating a decent, mostly plant based diet, you will get enough protein.

    I also disagree with the whole fat adaptation thing for most athletes. As Pickels said, it might be good for really extreme distance stuff where intensity is really low, but no one here has even mentioned an interest in that. Your body wants carbs to fuel its muscles, so why not give them to it?
    So should I just be eating carbs for breakfast? Oatmeal and fruits? How is protein in the AM a bad thing.....because my body spends several hours trying to digest it?

    When I did my V02 max 3 months ago the coach noted that my body basically starts burning fat right away during any effort and I only tapped into carbs when I was getting Z4.

  3. #78
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    I have a question for XtraPickels.

    I'm my youth I did a pretty traditional annual periodization based on a 4 week cycle. I seemed like the gold standard. I took a huge break from truly structured training, but not from riding/running/ski touring.

    Now that I'm 45 I wonder about the 3 week cycle. You seem to be a fan. I guess my hesitation is that it just seems like a lot of rest weeks. I'm generally pretty bad at resting, though I do always manage to back off before really getting overtrained.

    Do you think I'd benefit from the 3-week cycle going forward into more of a build phase? My goals are not racing (I have no fantasies about being able to compete with the young-uns), but rather being able to go faster on big rides so that I can go even bigger, hence the volume.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    I realize I need lots of carbs especially on hard workout days, ride days, race days.......but I want a six pack. Total vanity. We touched on this before in another thread I think. Is it as simple as more protein and even more workout? My legs, arms, shoulders are pretty defined and getting bigger. I can feel my abs getting stronger with core workouts........just damn 1" of fat layer on top. It's like the only fatty part of my body.
    Low-carb is super useful for losing fat or maintaining at relatively low body fat level, but to get super lean look to how bodybuilders do it - high protein, moderate carb, low fat. The vast majority of stored body fat is ingested, de novo lipogenesis for most people requires eating >400g of carbs per day on top of being sedentary. I'm generally an advocate of low-carb diets for most people but have been increasingly adding in carbs especially around training, and try to avoid added fat just for the sake of adding fat.

    About the bacon, the omega-6 fats in most pork is the problem, and poultry has a similar fatty acid profile but the advantage is that it's often leaner. Sausage type stuff will probably not be any leaner so there may or may not be the health advantage you're looking for.

    Protein all day every day. Carbs around training. If you aren't training and eating low-carb and want to have some carbs, having them closer to bedtime can help with evening hunger and ease of sleep.
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  5. #80
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    See, I really just don't understand this stuff. I have to cut the bad fats in the meats and go leaner while having enough carbs for fuel?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    So should I just be eating carbs for breakfast? Oatmeal and fruits? How is protein in the AM a bad thing.....because my body spends several hours trying to digest it?
    Yep, oats, fruit, some nuts. Not "just" carbs, but mostly.

    The thing is, assuming you're not doing your workouts really late, you want your fuel to be available for them. If your digestive system is working hard to deal with the fat and protein from breakfast, you won't have the quick sugars available for training.

    If you bias your protein intake later, your body can have the ingredients it needs to rebuild at night, when that kind of work is happening.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    I regularly see ads on YouTube claiming that even cardio is bad. I guess people keep wanting a silver bullet. As LA once said "What am I on? I'm on my bike, 6 hours a day." (Yes, I know he was also on drugs, but the point is sound.)

    Super funny. I know a high end, well respected weightlifting program whose owner and main influencer dumps on cardio all the time (just like many other lift centric people.) I'm gonna guess she's 35 or so so in her physical prime. She recently bragged about how she never did cardio, but she can still go run 5 miles and posted the log to prove it. I believe the time she posted was about 11:15/mile.

    I was entertained.

  8. #83
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    Thanks for you reply pickles. Since we are talking about bikes(road/mtb/indoor trainers) and weights, how about stretching and bikes without freewheels? My FixtWheelXbike has usually been my go-to for knee/hip strengthening rides. I believe working the muscles in a resistive way(akin to doing negatives in the weight room) has positive effects on my joints and generally working my lower body in a way for balance. FWIW, when I turned 40, I wanted to get my knees/hips in shape to run hills. I ride the fixt on roads and eventually trails and incorporated light runs into the mix. Never flat as that always put the hurt on my knees 20 minutes in. That summer I got to where I could run 6-9 miles with 2-3k of vert with virtually zero skeletal pain. Anyway, fixt wheel bikes are pretty cheap, help with your spin, and the resistance work seems hella beneficial. I've kept it to flats so far this year and am digging how my knees feel. Plus, you'll learn new technique when you ride it on the trails and if you are short on time, you get a little better workout. Oh and it is key to approach the fixt with patience and deliberate action to receive the benefits as opposed to potential harm. At least that is my take. Do you know of anyone who incorporates a fixt wheel into their training for balance and to keep it fun?

  9. #84
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    One other little anecdotal point on the diet stuff: I have always been very lean, and struggled to eat enough like WG. My issue is that I'm not actually hungry, but I know I need to eat when I get dizzy.

    I've basically solved that problem by eating more while riding, and always having 200-250 kC right after anything longer than 90 mins.

    I'm as lean as ever (138# at 5'9") but don't really have those crashes anymore. Yes, it's lame to just stuff my face all the time, but it works. The only problem is that it's hard to carry enough food for an 8 hour ride in only 3 jersey pockets.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  10. #85
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    Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    See, I really just don't understand this stuff. I have to cut the bad fats in the meats and go leaner while having enough carbs for fuel?
    IME itís not that simple. My goal has always been endurance over outright performance, so I probably donít belong in here. Quality of life over being a slave to carbs. In the absence of carbs, fat is your fuel. Peak performance is going to suffer, but does that matter as much in an enduro where you can crawl up the climbs versus an XC race where youíre blowing snot bubbles from start to finish? Protein is an inefficient substitute and there are issues with excessive protein consumption just as there are issues with excessive sugar consumption.

    Itís a balance. Do you want to focus on performance or eating as healthily as possible? Do you want to perform or do you want to be metabolically efficient and not rely on food? Do you want to go fast or do you want to be lean (6 pack)? You can balance your goals but you have to be willing to compromise.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  11. #86
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    So here's a question:

    Since XtrPickels has passed on it and there seems to be some interest, would folks be interested in some basic lifting/weights programs and principals? It's amazingly helpful, especially as you age. Cyclists in particular develop muscles in a way that creates some pretty strong body imbalances, and as you age injuries encourage compensation by other muscles, allowing for atrophy in other places. For that matter, so does a singular use such as cycling. As Pickels mentioned, this is best done in conjunction with an individual assessment to determine where you have issues, but absent that there are plenty of universal areas to focus on - lateral strength and stability, knee strength, upper body fitness, back strength, core, squat strength, dynamic strength etc. Equipment needed can range from bands and bodyweight to dumbbells to full weight setup, so it's accessible to anyone.

    Let me know if there is interest.

  12. #87
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    Pickles is the man. Dropped great nuggets. Here's the current dilemma;

    I love to feel fast, light and efficient (Saturday morning road worlds is my mutha fuckin jam)
    I love finding new roads and exploring
    I love jumping into my local Tuesday evening training road race
    I could be motived in a post-covid world to get highly focused to be competitive for hilly gravel races

    How does one balance all of those because it seems that training plans are focused on specific goals associated with dates (race, endurance, etc)?

  13. #88
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    Iíd be interested for sure. Been zwifting since Xmas and doing some core exercises but just renewed my gym membership for the next two months to get through mud season. Normally I just do the same sets of exercises I learned to do when reading muscle mags in high school...

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    See, I really just don't understand this stuff. I have to cut the bad fats in the meats and go leaner while having enough carbs for fuel?
    Eating ďbad fatsĒ wonít hurt your performance so much, itís more about inflammation, cardiovascular health, etc. Nutrition can get extremely complicated, and thereís no single right answer for everyone. If your goal is to get really lean then eat like a bodybuilder on a cut. If your goal is to be able to ride for hours without eating anything then stick to super low carb. If youíre trying to improve your high-intensity capacity youíre going to need a lot of carbs to fuel those workouts.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EWG View Post
    So here's a question:

    Since XtrPickels has passed on it and there seems to be some interest, would folks be interested in some basic lifting/weights programs and principals? It's amazingly helpful, especially as you age. Cyclists in particular develop muscles in a way that creates some pretty strong body imbalances, and as you age injuries encourage compensation by other muscles, allowing for atrophy in other places. For that matter, so does a singular use such as cycling. As Pickels mentioned, this is best done in conjunction with an individual assessment to determine where you have issues, but absent that there are plenty of universal areas to focus on - lateral strength and stability, knee strength, upper body fitness, back strength, core, squat strength, dynamic strength etc. Equipment needed can range from bands and bodyweight to dumbbells to full weight setup, so it's accessible to anyone.

    Let me know if there is interest.
    i'd be interested. i'm in the middle of a break from lifting mostly to give my shoulder a rest (rotator issues) and if/when i go back, i may focus more on lower body while increasing trainer rides and incorporating more core/yoga.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post

    Here on the Front Range, we're fortunate in general because East is Flat and West is not. Unfortunately West is where all the good mountain biking is.
    All of your information is interesting, but this is a confusing? statement.

    I've ridden in a lot of western states with the exception of the PNW ... someday I'll get there. But, ski hills are very different than mtn bike hills. Western hills tend to have long grinds up and long dh down. Eastern has some of that as well, but more constant ups and downs with a bunch of punchy tech. I specifically do upper body strength training just to be in shape to ride my mtn bike. Depending on the zone, my shoulders and chest can feel it post-ride as much as my legs. A 10 mile mtn bike ride here can be so much more taxing than a 20+ mile mtn bike ride elsewhere.

    I don't need to ride road or gravel, so I don't.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    Thank you for the responses XtraPickels.

    The only time I feel really really satiated is after breakfast. 3-4 eggs cooked in Coco oil, was doing 3-4 pieces of bacon daily but too much bad fat I think (?) so I switched to turkey sausage links or patties. Sometimes elk breakfast sausage (but I am getting burned out cause I had way too much of it with the elk I shot last year). GF oatmeal with grassfed butter and a little honey. Coffee with unsweetened coconut creamer.

    I realize I need lots of carbs especially on hard workout days, ride days, race days.......but I want a six pack. Total vanity. We touched on this before in another thread I think. Is it as simple as more protein and even more workout? My legs, arms, shoulders are pretty defined and getting bigger. I can feel my abs getting stronger with core workouts........just damn 1" of fat layer on top. It's like the only fatty part of my body.
    Just remember that losing weight takes time. You can speed that process up, but like all shortcuts there are compromises.
    If you want to have good fitness AND lose weight, you need to be patient.

    Many people think that carbs are bad news... and for many people they are. These people do not exercise with regularity or sufficient volume to deplete their stores. They're always full of carbs, and as such any additional carbs they consume "go into storage"... which is fat. Layer on top of this carb-rich diets of pasta and Soda and frankly it a perfect storm.

    For yourself, who is training hard, you need the energy. This is especially true during high-intensity training. Because you are regularly doing high-intensity work, you need regular carbs.

    If you enjoy a lower-carb diet, then continue with that. Understand that it will effect your high intensity efforts. If you want a compromise, then make sure you fuel up on carbs before any higher intensity exercise. At the very least some gel and sports drink, but a better strategy would be a higher-carb breakfast if training later in the day or a high carb dinner the night before if training earlier in the day.

    If someone were to engage in block-periodization where weeks have Low vs. High intensity focus, you can begin to focus some weeks on higher and lower carb intake. I'm not advocating that you change your training.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by EWG View Post
    Super funny. I know a high end, well respected weightlifting program whose owner and main influencer dumps on cardio all the time (just like many other lift centric people.) I'm gonna guess she's 35 or so so in her physical prime. She recently bragged about how she never did cardio, but she can still go run 5 miles and posted the log to prove it. I believe the time she posted was about 11:15/mile.

    I was entertained.
    My Wife is 39 and a 33 minute 10k runner.
    She never lifts weights...

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    All of your information is interesting, but this is a confusing? statement.

    I've ridden in a lot of western states with the exception of the PNW ... someday I'll get there. But, ski hills are very different than mtn bike hills. Western hills tend to have long grinds up and long dh down. Eastern has some of that as well, but more constant ups and downs with a bunch of punchy tech. I specifically do upper body strength training just to be in shape to ride my mtn bike. Depending on the zone, my shoulders and chest can feel it post-ride as much as my legs. A 10 mile mtn bike ride here can be so much more taxing than a 20+ mile mtn bike ride elsewhere.

    I don't need to ride road or gravel, so I don't.
    Yeah, I can see how that's confusing.
    I was referring to the Front range of Colorado specifically. If we ride east, it's dead flat. If we go west then it into the mountains.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tellybele View Post
    Thanks for you reply pickles. Since we are talking about bikes(road/mtb/indoor trainers) and weights, how about stretching and bikes without freewheels? My FixtWheelXbike has usually been my go-to for knee/hip strengthening rides. I believe working the muscles in a resistive way(akin to doing negatives in the weight room) has positive effects on my joints and generally working my lower body in a way for balance. FWIW, when I turned 40, I wanted to get my knees/hips in shape to run hills. I ride the fixt on roads and eventually trails and incorporated light runs into the mix. Never flat as that always put the hurt on my knees 20 minutes in. That summer I got to where I could run 6-9 miles with 2-3k of vert with virtually zero skeletal pain. Anyway, fixt wheel bikes are pretty cheap, help with your spin, and the resistance work seems hella beneficial. I've kept it to flats so far this year and am digging how my knees feel. Plus, you'll learn new technique when you ride it on the trails and if you are short on time, you get a little better workout. Oh and it is key to approach the fixt with patience and deliberate action to receive the benefits as opposed to potential harm. At least that is my take. Do you know of anyone who incorporates a fixt wheel into their training for balance and to keep it fun?
    I'd say this falls under the "training tools" that are great if you enjoy them.
    E.g. I have a Balance board, my kids and I like to play with it. I know I've gotten better at it, but who knows if that translates to skiing or riding? Regardless, it's fun.

    Riding Fixed gear can certainly improve your pedal stroke, but it's hard to say if that really improves your performance. There has not been solid evidence that suggests it does.

    You are right in the "negative" aspect of slowly yourself down does have a strength-like component. I'm not aware if this is enough stimulus to induce adaptation or not.

    I'll definitely add your n=1 experience into the knowledge queue. Thanks.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by bean View Post
    Eating “bad fats” won’t hurt your performance so much, it’s more about inflammation, cardiovascular health, etc. Nutrition can get extremely complicated, and there’s no single right answer for everyone. If your goal is to get really lean then eat like a bodybuilder on a cut. If your goal is to be able to ride for hours without eating anything then stick to super low carb. If you’re trying to improve your high-intensity capacity you’re going to need a lot of carbs to fuel those workouts.
    Bean is nailing these nutrition thoughts. I suspect there may be some background?
    I'm happy to defer as my main areas of knowledge are Exercise and Thermal physiology.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckbucket View Post
    Pickles is the man. Dropped great nuggets. Here's the current dilemma;

    I love to feel fast, light and efficient (Saturday morning road worlds is my mutha fuckin jam)
    I love finding new roads and exploring
    I love jumping into my local Tuesday evening training road race
    I could be motived in a post-covid world to get highly focused to be competitive for hilly gravel races

    How does one balance all of those because it seems that training plans are focused on specific goals associated with dates (race, endurance, etc)?
    I think you can do it.
    For example:

    Saturday: Ride hard. If you're going to do it, do it. Take big pulls, leave it all out there.
    Sunday: Ride long, explore, but focus on riding base.
    Monday: Ride Shorter, focus on base.
    Tuesday: Tear their legs off.
    Wednesday: Easy Ride
    Thursday: Off
    Friday: Ride Base.

    In this scenario you're choosing 2 events instead of 2 workouts. I have no issues with that.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    IME it’s not that simple. My goal has always been endurance over outright performance, so I probably don’t belong in here. Quality of life over being a slave to carbs. In the absence of carbs, fat is your fuel. Peak performance is going to suffer, but does that matter as much in an enduro where you can crawl up the climbs versus an XC race where you’re blowing snot bubbles from start to finish? Protein is an inefficient substitute and there are issues with excessive protein consumption just as there are issues with excessive sugar consumption.

    It’s a balance. Do you want to focus on performance or eating as healthily as possible? Do you want to perform or do you want to be metabolically efficient and not rely on food? Do you want to go fast or do you want to be lean (6 pack)? You can balance your goals but you have to be willing to compromise.
    You're spot on. I don't think you're an outlier; but people whom are performance oriented tend to be more outspoken in these situations.
    I completely agree that it's a balancing act with compromises; for you and your goals I can get behind the low-carb situation.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    I have a question for XtraPickels.

    I'm my youth I did a pretty traditional annual periodization based on a 4 week cycle. I seemed like the gold standard. I took a huge break from truly structured training, but not from riding/running/ski touring.

    Now that I'm 45 I wonder about the 3 week cycle. You seem to be a fan. I guess my hesitation is that it just seems like a lot of rest weeks. I'm generally pretty bad at resting, though I do always manage to back off before really getting overtrained.

    Do you think I'd benefit from the 3-week cycle going forward into more of a build phase? My goals are not racing (I have no fantasies about being able to compete with the young-uns), but rather being able to go faster on big rides so that I can go even bigger, hence the volume.
    It all depends...

    I'd rock a 4-week cycle if I could. But, with the 3-w's (work, wife, wkids), its hard for me to get training that dialed up.
    If I did the same volume / intensity as I do now, but for a 3 on / 1 off cycle, I'd really have to focus more on recovery. I would be less apt to go for hikes and ski and other fun things with the family because I'd be cooked from training.

    With the 3 week cycle I can:
    1. Crush an intensity week (8-10 hours = lower volume = more time with family),
    2. Hang on for a volume week (12-16 hours = less family time)
    3. Recover (6-9 hours = more time with family)

    Some people can train more than this, some can train less. With my wife training 7-10 hours per week, this is what works for us.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    So should I just be eating carbs for breakfast? Oatmeal and fruits? How is protein in the AM a bad thing.....because my body spends several hours trying to digest it?

    When I did my V02 max 3 months ago the coach noted that my body basically starts burning fat right away during any effort and I only tapped into carbs when I was getting Z4.
    FWIW, you were either carb-depleted or their equipment was not accurate / mis-calibrated.
    Send me your results and I'll tell you which

    The vast majority of people oxidize primarily carbohydrate throughout all exercise intensities (in a non-depleted state). An athlete needs a very solid engine to be burning primarily fat; I've never done it and I'd say <20% of athletes that I've worked with have.

    By threshold, everyone in a normal metabolic state is oxidizing 100% carbohydrate.

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