Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[XtrPickels]

Nice ride.

Sometimes a little downtime can freshen you up nicely.

[radam]

Not a training question per se, but biometric-related. My dad, age 68, is an avid kayaker. His usual deal is to go out and do a 5 mile paddle 3-5x/week, and some of those times he pushes to see if he can best his PR. He did a race over the weekend and commented that he was neck and neck with a younger guy for a stretch and really went for it to see what he could do, and that he hit a peak HR of 178 with an average for the 3km race of 155. He's using an older garmin chest HR strap. I know HR monitors aren't medical grade devices and that peaky/spiky efforts can introduce some extra variability but.... should I be worried for him? He had a stent put in about 5 yrs back for a significant blockage that he was lucky to catch (or rather, should have caught even sooner when he was constantly getting tired/winded doing daily activities but lucky in the sense that it was not a traumatic event that landed him in the dr's office). Max calculated HR for a 68-year old is 152, so 155 avg / 178 max seems... not good, even factoring in that he is exercising regularly. Thoughts?

[XtrPickels]

The absolute number isn't necessarily a bad thing, however, given his history it might be ill-advised to exercise at such a high % of max HR.

Best course of action would be a graded exercise test with an EKG to monitor electrical activity to ensure the heart is getting enough oxygen and to also monitor blood pressures.

[Tailwind]

Pierre's Hole last weekend I did the "100" (it's only an 80 mile course). Course conditions were pretty tough... pooled hail in some sections and a good amount of mud that accumulated on tires leading to some slow climbs and sketchy descents. The only other NUE event i've done was High Cascades a few years ago. I found a few people who did the high cascades a few weeks ago Pierre's on Saturday and all had similar times between both events (likely given the mudfest that Pierre's was at first and the fact that it's like 98% singletrack with a similar amount of climbing).

Cracked mentally a bit while pushing my bike in the mud at mile 40 (and stopping to attempt to clear my chainstay) and getting passed by people who were not glopping as much. (I'm not sure if it was tread pattern or bigger clearances). I got back into a better routine later in the day and finished the back half of lap three quite a bit faster than my second lap. I did the High Cascades in 9:15 (50th overall) and Pierre's in 8:06 (9th overall). If times are at all comparable, which I think they are given the course conditions, I think it's really solid progress. No solids... 9 gels and 6 bottles of Carborocket down the hatch seemed to do well.

Now I just need to figure out if I'll actually commit to riding throughout the off season. I didn't get on the bike until late April this year and I think I would need to be put in a day or two per week over the winter and start a bit earlier if I want to keep making any progress. I'd love to have a shot a podium... but I also like skiing and just riding bikes for fun. It's been great reading peoples thoughts and feedback in this thread. I learned more than a little from reading through responses, so thanks for the insights!

[TrueNorth]

. Max calculated HR for a 68-year old is 152, so 155 avg / 178 max seems... not good, even factoring in that he is exercising regularly. Thoughts?

A better estimate for older people is 208-0.7*age (source article), which would be 160 max at 68 yo, but there is quite a large spread around that estimate with standard deviation of 7 to 11 bpm according to that same article (i.e. about 95% of people would be within +/- 2 standard deviations from the max hr predicted by the formula)

That's not to say it's necessarily ok for him, just that it's still within the expected range for a person his age.

[radam]

A better estimate for older people is 208-0.7*age (source article), which would be 160 max at 68 yo, but there is quite a large spread around that estimate with standard deviation of 7 to 11 bpm according to that same article (i.e. about 95% of people would be within +/- 2 standard deviations from the max hr predicted by the formula)

That's not to say it's necessarily ok for him, just that it's still within the expected range for a person his age.

Thanks, that makes me feel a bit better. I may still bring it up with him, but if ~160 max is more reasonable then the 155 avg for the race is not out of line, and knowing that consumer-grade HR monitors are not always accurate for short burst-type efforts, the 178 peak may be less of a concern.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

I'm curious - for those of you who've hired coaches - was the juice worth the squeeze? The reason I ask is I've been able to place in the top 10% of the field in the races I've done this year and I'd really like to bump that up to the top 5% (or higher) in the next year (or longer since those types of gains might not come fast). So I've been debating forking out the cash for a coach/trainer or just continuing to grind away on a training plan.

[Dantheman]

Pickles:

I'm really curious what your thoughts are about beta alanine. I started taking 3 g/day about 2 months ago and wish I had discovered it years ago.

I've been feeling great on hard climbs. I don't think I'm any faster than my riding volume can explain, but riding close to my limit feels noticeably less miserable. I also spontaneously lost around 2-3% body fat without trying or changing anything else. I'm down on the scale, clothes feel looser, and in the mirror I look more shredded than I ever have in my life. Finally, I feel great in general. It's hard to describe, but I just feel good. AC started 8 days ago and is feeling the same effect.

Is this common? Reading up on BA on Examine fat loss does seem to be a consistent effect in studies, but I didn't see much about psychological effects. There seem to be almost no risks associated with BA supplementation at reasonable does and it's super cheap. So, why isn't everyone taking it? Are all high-level athletes taking it and not talking about it?

[sethschmautz]

Just jumping in here to say thanks to the collective for the advice and the training plan. The "Last Best Ride" was today and it went great. I took the last two weeks super easy and I was rested, refreshed, and felt strong for the entire ride.

I finished in 7 hours of riding time so I didn't set any records, but the 90 miles and 8000' vert is probably my biggest riding day this far. All of the climbs felt great - I was strong and passed a bunch of people on every climb. When I hit the last stretch of pavement at mile 82 or so I still had gas left in the tank so went all out all the way in. Felt amazing.

I definitely owe the performance to xtrpikels and the others who weighed in throughout the thread. I even bought a power meter for next year.

Thanks a ton!

Seth

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Dantheman]

Nice work, Seth! It feels so good to finish strong like that.

[BFD]

Just jumping in here to say thanks to the collective for the advice and the training plan. The "Last Best Ride" was today and it went great. I took the last two weeks super easy and I was rested, refreshed, and felt strong for the entire ride.

I finished in 7 hours of riding time so I didn't set any records, but the 90 miles and 8000' vert is probably my biggest riding day this far. All of the climbs felt great - I was strong and passed a bunch of people on every climb. When I hit the last stretch of pavement at mile 82 or so I still had gas left in the tank so went all out all the way in. Felt amazing.

I definitely owe the performance to xtrpikels and the others who weighed in throughout the thread. I even bought a power meter for next year.

Thanks a ton!

Seth

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

congratulations. that looks like a competitive race. You must of finished very close to my friend. I always think of him as being very fit. Amazing people can be 2 hrs faster in that race. looks like two places

[bean]

Well Triple Bypass was this past weekend, I signed up for the fondo but have hardly ridden bikes this summer and focused a lot more on lifting so just rode at a conversational pace with a friend. Felt fantastic the whole day which was really nice since I didn't train. Force-feeding myself at the aid stations and lots of salt pills helped a lot, no cramps even. https://www.strava.com/activities/5831220764

I just joined Zwift and am considering some crits next summer to do some racing where I won't be penalized for weighing more, any of the programs on there worth looking at? I see there's a Crit Crusher training plan. I've seen criticism that there's too much focus on higher-intensity work but I get plenty of easy effort days backcountry skiing over the winter.

Pickles:

I'm really curious what your thoughts are about beta alanine. I started taking 3 g/day about 2 months ago and wish I had discovered it years ago.

I've been feeling great on hard climbs. I don't think I'm any faster than my riding volume can explain, but riding close to my limit feels noticeably less miserable. I also spontaneously lost around 2-3% body fat without trying or changing anything else. I'm down on the scale, clothes feel looser, and in the mirror I look more shredded than I ever have in my life. Finally, I feel great in general. It's hard to describe, but I just feel good. AC started 8 days ago and is feeling the same effect.

Is this common? Reading up on BA on Examine fat loss does seem to be a consistent effect in studies, but I didn't see much about psychological effects. There seem to be almost no risks associated with BA supplementation at reasonable does and it's super cheap. So, why isn't everyone taking it? Are all high-level athletes taking it and not talking about it?

I've been taking BA for years, like you said it costs next to nothing and has no downsides - and unlike a lot of stuff it actually has consistently reproducible benefits. Hard to quantify something like it on an individual level but the "close to the limit doesn't hurt as bad" effect is great.

[Dantheman]

I've been taking BA for years, like you said it costs next to nothing and has no downsides - and unlike a lot of stuff it actually has consistently reproducible benefits. Hard to quantify something like it on an individual level but the "close to the limit doesn't hurt as bad" effect is great.

Nice. What's your dosage? Ever take a break from it?

[XtrPickels]

Pickles:

I'm really curious what your thoughts are about beta alanine. I started taking 3 g/day about 2 months ago and wish I had discovered it years ago.

I've been feeling great on hard climbs. I don't think I'm any faster than my riding volume can explain, but riding close to my limit feels noticeably less miserable. I also spontaneously lost around 2-3% body fat without trying or changing anything else. I'm down on the scale, clothes feel looser, and in the mirror I look more shredded than I ever have in my life. Finally, I feel great in general. It's hard to describe, but I just feel good. AC started 8 days ago and is feeling the same effect.

Is this common? Reading up on BA on Examine fat loss does seem to be a consistent effect in studies, but I didn't see much about psychological effects. There seem to be almost no risks associated with BA supplementation at reasonable does and it's super cheap. So, why isn't everyone taking it? Are all high-level athletes taking it and not talking about it?

Yep- It works. I think you're experiencing exactly what it's good at: Buffering high intensity work.
Regarding the weight loss, I'm unsure of the mechanism there.

I don't know why more people don't take it, perhaps the tingling / flushing keeps people away? It certainly isn't talked about much.

Oddly, when taking it I feel my hands don't get cold in the winter.

Edit to add: For anyone considering Beta Alanine:
1. You will feel a tingling / hotness / flushing typically in your face but also elsewhere ~30 min after taking. It typically feels like a mild sunburn, in my opinion.
2. Take "CarnoSyn" Specifically. It is a patented formulation licensed by Brands such as Now Sports, etc.

[XtrPickels]

Just jumping in here to say thanks to the collective for the advice and the training plan. The "Last Best Ride" was today and it went great. I took the last two weeks super easy and I was rested, refreshed, and felt strong for the entire ride.

I finished in 7 hours of riding time so I didn't set any records, but the 90 miles and 8000' vert is probably my biggest riding day this far. All of the climbs felt great - I was strong and passed a bunch of people on every climb. When I hit the last stretch of pavement at mile 82 or so I still had gas left in the tank so went all out all the way in. Felt amazing.

I definitely owe the performance to xtrpikels and the others who weighed in throughout the thread. I even bought a power meter for next year.

Thanks a ton!

Seth

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

Nice! Great work out there. Feeling good throughout a hard ride is a very good feeling.
Keep moving up!

[Dantheman]

Regarding the weight loss, I'm unsure of the mechanism there.

This is what Examine has to say:

"Beta-alanine appears to contribute to lean mass gains, through mechanisms currently unknown. The notion that these benefits are dependent on exercise cannot be refuted, since all three relevant studies paired beta-alanine supplementation with an exercise regimen."

For me, something seems to be at work that is independent of training volume. I've had similar volume in the past without being this lean. Last weekend I took a shirtless selfie just to be sure that what I was seeing in the mirror was real.

I don't know why more people don't take it, perhaps the tingling / flushing keeps people away? It certainly isn't talked about much.

Oddly, when taking it I feel my hands don't get cold in the winter.

I actually kind of like the paresthesia. It barely happens now that I've been taking it for a while. That's interesting about the cold, that would be a really nice bonus effect in winter.

2. Take "CarnoSyn" Specifically. It is a patented formulation licensed by Brands such as Now Sports, etc.

I'll look into that when my current stash starts running low. I bought a kilo from Bulk Supplements so it's going to be a while, and BS is pretty reputable. It's looks like a lot of the CarnoSyn "Verified Partners" are pre-workout mixes with a bunch of other stuff I'm not interested in.

[bean]

Nice. What's your dosage? Ever take a break from it?

I take about a tsp almost every day, I don’t own a postage scale so I don’t know exact weight but it’s a couple g. I take creatine ~3-5g too. Only time I stop is if I’m traveling and just because I’m not going to bother bringing it.

[meepmoop24]

I'm looking to add in some tempo/interval work to my "training" regimen. I haven't really done any structured workouts before this and I think I'm stagnating a bit.

For reference, I normally do a long-ish gravel or road ride on weekends (60-70 miles over 4-5 hours), ride a couple days a week of MTB, and then a shorter (1.5 hour) gravel ride. I've been doing this most of summer so I feel like I have a decent base, but recently I haven't really been improving much so I think it's time to change things up.

I have a race coming up in October so I know that there's not much time to make meaningful progress, but curious on any recommendations of how to add in some hard intervals/tempos to my riding regimen and whether that's even the right thing to add at this point?

[climberevan]

I bet you'd benefit from a session of VO2 max intervals on Tuesdays. Start with 5x 4 minute with 3 mins rest between basically all out after a really good warmup. You should be doubled over and nearly unable to control the bike for at least the last 45 secs of each interval. The whole workout can be done in an hour. If that isn't enough, do 5x5. Do it twice a week if you don't ride hard on your longer weekend ride.

Intensity like that will bring results fast.

[bean]

If that isn't enough, do 5x5.

>5x5m@Z5
😑🔫

[rideit]

Well, I don’t know that I will ever be too much faster going uphill, but the stamina is better now than in my thirties. Rode just over 27,000 vert this week, which is probably my most ever. Feels great. I am doing a vert challenge for August at my gym, I should have over 50-55 k for the month. It will be nice to go back to some in-between recovery days, and shuttling some DH’s again!

[XtrPickels]

I'm looking to add in some tempo/interval work to my "training" regimen. I haven't really done any structured workouts before this and I think I'm stagnating a bit.

For reference, I normally do a long-ish gravel or road ride on weekends (60-70 miles over 4-5 hours), ride a couple days a week of MTB, and then a shorter (1.5 hour) gravel ride. I've been doing this most of summer so I feel like I have a decent base, but recently I haven't really been improving much so I think it's time to change things up.

I have a race coming up in October so I know that there's not much time to make meaningful progress, but curious on any recommendations of how to add in some hard intervals/tempos to my riding regimen and whether that's even the right thing to add at this point?

You can certainly improve between now and then.
1. There are physiologic improvements that can occur in that time.
2. There are perception improvements that can occur in an even shorter timeframe

Question 1: Honestly, how hard are you riding during your current rides?
This applies to both how hard you are pushing yourself, but also how hard the terrain makes you go. A mountain bike ride with steep hills that you are grunting up is essentially an interval workout.

If you are going to begin doing structured intervals, you really ought to pay attention to keeping your other rides lower intensity.

Question 2: What is you event, what are your goals, what is limiting you from reaching those goals?

Regarding specific workouts: Most people never go truly hard, so I could agree with C-E that "VO2" type intervals are likely worthwhile. These can either be an exact 5 minute effort on the trainer / sustained climb or repeats up a hill that is 5-ish minutes in length. You'd be looking to go as hard as you can for the 5 minutes, but not so hard that you cannot sustain it for each repeat. E.g. If you're doing an interval up a hill you want to be able to reach the same point each time. Start with 3x5, then 4x5, then 5x5. Once you can do 5x5, go to 3x8, then 4x8. Try to do the 8 minutes at the same workload as the 5 minutes

Intervals 2 days a week, whether a planned workout or because your ride forces you to go hard are all that's needed. But, these workouts should be very difficult - a Type II type of fun.

[XtrPickels]

Well, I don’t know that I will ever be too much faster going uphill, but the stamina is better now than in my thirties. Rode just over 27,000 vert this week, which is probably my most ever. Feels great. I am doing a vert challenge for August at my gym, I should have over 50-55 k for the month. It will be nice to go back to some in-between recovery days, and shuttling some DH’s again!

I just looked at the past year, the closest I've come for a week was 22k and that was virtual!
My wife was sick and I had a long ride planned, so I did 3x Alp d. Zwift.

My biggest IRL was when I recon'd Kokopelli in 2 days, which was only 19.5k for the week.

[Dantheman]

Well, I don’t know that I will ever be too much faster going uphill, but the stamina is better now than in my thirties. Rode just over 27,000 vert this week, which is probably my most ever. Feels great. I am doing a vert challenge for August at my gym, I should have over 50-55 k for the month. It will be nice to go back to some in-between recovery days, and shuttling some DH’s again!

27k vert in a week is insane, nice work!

[rideit]

Lol, I basically only worked for two hours this week. Almost 270 miles. But I really wish I were faster. Oh well.