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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Mine is 250 g dextrose, 150 g sucrose, 5 g fine non-iodized salt, 2 g potassium citrate, 15 g True Lemon powder, 5 g citric acid. Tastes like lemonade. You can adjust the lemon and citric acid to taste. 1 tbs is 9-10 g carbs, about 3:1 glucose:fructose.
    Mine is even more slacker-friendly.

    500g maltodextrin powder (glucose) (Bezos or GNC in giant buckets)
    250g fructose powder (same, but more $ and much sweeter tasting)
    10g table salt
    2 packs unsweetened Kool Aid (I like minimal flavor)

    I have some random scoops that I weighed and marked so I can put in a known weight/calorie count without weighing it each time.

    My GF prefers the version that is 100% maltodextrin because it's barely sweet and she can get more in that way. Experiment so you can figure out what works for your stomach.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  2. #252
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    Probably only related to my experience, but may help others:

    I definitely grind my teeth in my sleep. Dentist told me so. I have had months of time off and on using various night guards. Generally the disposable ones, but I got one of the $30 mold at home in 5 minutes ones about a week ago. I 100% sleep WAYYYY deeper when I wear it. I probably was waking myself up with grinding before or something. With the new night guard I sometimes sleep straight through 8-9 hours with lots of REM cause the dreams are intense.

    I bet lots of single people grind their teeth and don't know because they don't have a GF/Wife to be like, "Um, sounded like you were chewing rocks last night"

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Cost.
    Yep. Pennies on the dollar.

    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Sleep is so important that is not really a "recovery tool" so much as a prerequisite for any hope of decent performance. As much as people still neglect it, though, I can understand how it's come to be seen as a tool like foam rolling or something.

    Anecdotally, I can cite cannabis as a useful tool. A small draw from an indica vape really helps to shut down the busy brain, and my GF loves tinctures or gummies to help get a full night of what we call Dead Person Style sleep. It's an easy, cheap, and no side effect thing to try, anyway. (Unless you live in a backwards place where it's still illegal, I guess.) 10 hours of DPS really does a body good!

    I'm looking forward to others' suggestions on this front.
    I'd go further--sleep is a prerequisite for any hope of good health, let alone serious athletic performance. Everyone should read Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep, it kinda changed my life. Sleep is the foundation upon which all health is built. Unfortunately society is not set up to protect sleep and it's often the first thing many of us are willing or required to sacrifice.

    Cannabis and sleep have not been as well studied as you may think, which is probably a consequence of the difficulty of researching Schedule I drugs. The data I have found seems to show that cannabis is very effective at reducing sleep latency, particularly in "busy brain" people who have a hard time shutting down their thoughts. It does reduce REM sleep somewhat, but REM sleep is also biased more toward the second half of the night when THC levels are falling off so it's probably still a net-positive for sleep overall.

    Walker never mentions cannabis in WWS, but he has nothing good to say about almost all other sleep meds and devotes an entire chapter to the topic. They all just sedate you and don't promote normal restorative sleep cycles. Alcohol before bed, even small amounts, is especially bad. He stops just short of calling Ambien evil, and that might have been influenced by his attorneys. I don't recall benadryl being mentioned by name but I doubt it's much better.

    A few grams of glycine, 100-200 mg of L-theanine, and a few hundred mg of Mg, either alone or in combination, are all worth trying.

    My nocturnal polyuria wakes me up 3x per night no matter what so staying asleep all night is not something I'm familiar with or expect to experience in the future (I've seen my GP, a second GP/internist, two urologists, a nephrologist and a sleep specialist about it with zero results, I've resigned myself to living with it for the rest of my life). If I remember WWS correctly, his best advice for people who wake up in the middle of the night and have trouble falling back to sleep is to get out of bed for 5-10 minutes and either walk around slowly or sit on the couch and do some relaxation breathing. When you get back into bed you'll usually fall back asleep quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Mine is even more slacker-friendly.

    500g maltodextrin powder (glucose) (Bezos or GNC in giant buckets)
    250g fructose powder (same, but more $ and much sweeter tasting)
    10g table salt
    2 packs unsweetened Kool Aid (I like minimal flavor)

    I have some random scoops that I weighed and marked so I can put in a known weight/calorie count without weighing it each time.

    My GF prefers the version that is 100% maltodextrin because it's barely sweet and she can get more in that way. Experiment so you can figure out what works for your stomach.
    No K? I have to take in extra Na and K on top of what's in my mix to prevent cramping, but that's a pretty individual thing. I'm aware that there's a dearth of data linking electrolyte depletion to cramps, but I've experimented with it quite a bit and for me salt works. Not capsules either, right in the mouth--an uncomfortably salty taste in my mouth seems to be a key part of it.

    The Kool Aid is a great idea. If I get bored of lemonade flavor I'll try that out, but I love citrus in general. I think you want it to be sweet. I've seen discussion of studies where simply swishing a sugary drink around athletes' mouths and then spitting it out improved performance (no effect with an equally sweet non-caloric drink). The hypothesis being that you have receptors in your mouth and esophagus that can detect glucose and this triggers your brain to take the brakes off before the calories even hit your bloodstream. I'd be curious to know if Pickles is familiar with these studies and whether the results have been interpreted correctly.

    The main thing seems to be glucose:fructose at around 2:1-3:1, an electrolyte content of ~1.5%, and putting down enough of it. The rest is window dressing.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Walker never mentions cannabis in WWS, but he has nothing good to say about almost all other sleep meds and devotes an entire chapter to the topic. They all just sedate you and don't promote normal restorative sleep cycles. Alcohol before bed, even small amounts, is especially bad. He stops just short of calling Ambien evil, and that might have been influenced by his attorneys. I don't recall benadryl being mentioned by name but I doubt it's much better.

    A few grams of glycine, 100-200 mg of L-theanine, and a few hundred mg of Mg, either alone or in combination, are all worth trying.
    If I remember WWS correctly, his best advice for people who wake up in the middle of the night and have trouble falling back to sleep is to get out of bed for 5-10 minutes and either walk around slowly or sit on the couch and do some relaxation breathing. When you get back into bed you'll usually fall back asleep quickly.
    No K? I have to take in extra Na and K on top of what's in my mix to prevent cramping, but that's a pretty individual thing.

    I've seen discussion of studies where simply swishing a sugary drink around athletes' mouths and then spitting it out improved performance (no effect with an equally sweet non-caloric drink). The hypothesis being that you have receptors in your mouth and esophagus that can detect glucose and this triggers your brain to take the brakes off before the calories even hit your bloodstream. I'd be curious to know if Pickles is familiar with these studies and whether the results have been interpreted correctly.
    This all sounds right to me. My big problem has historically been waking at like 0230 with the mind racing. I try to leave the bedroom and read National Geographic or The New Yorker for an hour or so, and it almost always works to get me quieted down and ready to go back to sleep. The worst is when I toss and turn for an hour or more before getting out of bed.

    Whenever I take a break from alcohol I sleep much better. I'm not a heavy drinker, but even a 5% beer at 2100 seems to have a noticeable effect on my sleep. When I'm abstaining completely I will sometimes spend less time in bed but actually feel more rested over the course of a week or so.

    My understanding (XTR?) is that cramping is much more tied to fatigue than electrolyte intake and that outside of extreme sweating for very long durations almost no one actually needs to supplement with salt or other minerals while exercising. My own personal experience is that I've cramped maybe twice on rides in the last 25 years, so I'm not worried about it either way.

    I just volunteered again last weekend at the Tahoe Rim Trail ultra run. We have a huge aid station that runners pass multiple times on their loops with a shitload of food choices, and it's really interesting watching what the runners eat and drink. The fast ones, who are actually running, usually just want some drink mix in their bottles/bladders and then jet right out of there. (They will be finishing the 50 in ~8-9h, or the 100mi in ~20-26h.) As the race goes on the fast ones will sometimes eat some watermelon, and boiled potatoes dipped in salt is popular. They really eat very little compared with what cyclists would eat, though, but I think that's just because running makes it hard to keep anything down.

    The fascinating eating really comes after about 15 hours for the slower runners (really mostly walkers at this point) who will be taking 30+ hours for the 100mi. They like all sorts of random shit like pickles and pickle juice, chips, soda, Ensure, rice balls dipped in soy sauce, turkey & cheese sandwiches, vegetable broth, miso soup, etc. Later in the night we give them quesadillas, tater tots (can't keep up with demand for those), sweet potato fries, beer, whiskey, tequila. Many of them really like salty stuff, but honestly I think it's more just what they can tolerate rather than what would be optimal for fueling. We do give out the E-Caps, but limit people to 2 each. The people who want those swear by them, but again I think it's impossible to extract the placebo effect.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  5. #255
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    I don't think the fact that the only muscles that are cramping are the fatigued ones precludes the possibility that it's related to an electrolyte imbalance. Like Dan, I cramp like a mofo, and I have no doubt that consistent and relatively heavy intake of electrolytes works to limit cramping. The taste aspect probably has some merit, but I try to avoid getting to the point where I can test that out anymore. It isn't just cramping, it's overall feel. Consistent intake of salt pills and tablets limits my feelings of fatigue, physically and mentally. I get a brain fog late into long rides in hot weather that effects my judgement and motivation. That's eliminated if I take in electrolytes. It also basically eliminates any after-ride twitching and weirdness.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    Did they do a Hemoglobin A1c?
    This will give a better picture of your blood sugar over the past few months.
    This ^^ , instead of constsnt testing which is expensive just get an A1c

    I am Type II and IME just eating the correct amounts of food ( follow the white label on food products) chose the products with lower amounts of sugar, also cut out added sugars made a huge difference on the A1c test

    I also lost 15lbs and went from overweight to normal BMI
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Whenever I take a break from alcohol I sleep much better. I'm not a heavy drinker, but even a 5% beer at 2100 seems to have a noticeable effect on my sleep. When I'm abstaining completely I will sometimes spend less time in bed but actually feel more rested over the course of a week or so.

    My understanding (XTR?) is that cramping is much more tied to fatigue than electrolyte intake and that outside of extreme sweating for very long durations almost no one actually needs to supplement with salt or other minerals while exercising. My own personal experience is that I've cramped maybe twice on rides in the last 25 years, so I'm not worried about it either way.
    Even small amounts of alcohol near bed also badly exacerbates my NP, so I've practically quit drinking. Thankfully, Busch NA actually tastes pretty good. If you handed it to me in glass and told me it was PBR I wouldn't flinch. Plus, you can drink it in the car without worrying about open container or DUI!

    Yeah, I'm aware of the studies that fail to link electrolyte depletion to cramping, but for me, it works. I'm not sure I'd had a real cramp in my entire life until about 10 years ago and then suddenly it became a real problem. I did some experimentation and salt seemed to work. Then I found all the "not an electrolyte problem" studies and went away from it for a while and they came back. I cramped horribly on a relatively short ride this spring, went whole hog back to salt supplementation and haven't had a single problem since. The problem was just gone immediately and can't be explained by increased fitness. n=1 and all the caveats that come with it, but it makes me think there's a subset of the population where salt is the problem/solution but they get lost in the larger dataset.
    Last edited by Dantheman; 07-19-2021 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Basic rice bar recipe:

    2c white sushi style rice
    1/2c coconut flakes
    1t salt
    1t ginger
    1t vanilla extract
    5c water

    Cook it low and slow.

    When it cools, mix in 2/3c or so of yogurt or cream cheese and maple syrup/brown rice syrup/Aunt Jemima syrup to taste. You can add chocolate chips, chopped dates, or whatever you want, but don't go crazy or they won't hold together..

    Spread it out in a flat cake pan about 3/4-1" thick, and cut into squares. I think we get about 15pc per recipe. Wrap in foil. We can usually get at least 2 uses out of each piece of foil, so the system saves waste too.

    I also make a variation that is like a slightly spicy dal-baht bar, which might not be for everyone but I like them a lot.
    Thanks for this. I am making a batch right now. Will throw in some maple syrup and semi-sweet choc chips. What size squares do you cut and do you have a ballpark # on the calories per bar?

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian View Post
    Thanks for this. I am making a batch right now. Will throw in some maple syrup and semi-sweet choc chips. What size squares do you cut and do you have a ballpark # on the calories per bar?
    I just cut them into even blocks based on the cake pan I have. I think they're about 2"x 3", usually. I kind of assume they are around 200kC, but i haven't added it up so that could be WAY off. We use the pre-cut foil sheets that come in a big box at restaurant stores, and that's the size that works well to fold up.

    Maybe your contribution could be to add up the calories and weights of all of the ingredients and divide by the total yield so we can all learn how many calories they have!
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  10. #260
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    Cramping was discussed extensively early in this thread. Worth going back to read.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  11. #261
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    Got a fueling mystery I've been trying to figure out. I've never had stomach issues on a big ride (am able to eat gels, gu, drink mix, food, etc. as needed although I prefer normal food), but I got my ass kicked by some sort of fueling error a few weeks back:

    - I camped out the night before a gravel race/ride (110 miles, 10k vert, 90 degree high temps). Drank lots of water/was well hydrated, had a big dinner, did have one beer. Slept like crap - maybe 2 - 4 hours max. I have 3 kids so leeping poorly before a ride isn't a huge deal.
    - Woke up, had a bagel with peanut butter at 6am, and started riding at 7 am. First 21 miles/2 hours of the race climbed 4k vert. 3k of that occurred from mile 11 - 21.
    - I spent the climb with the lead group of 6. The first hour of that was between endurance and sweet spot, the second hour was at or right below threshold (based on heart rate - I don't have power on this bike).
    - During those two hours I drank one bottle of GU Roctane energy drink (mixed with 1L of water) + 2 gus during the climb. Did not drink normal water. Had a 3rd gu at the top.
    - During the descent I started to get sharp pains in my stomach. At the bottom, I had a single shot block and a little drink mix and it was like someone punched me in the stomach. Every little bit of food I tried to eat for the next hour just caused more and more stomach pain. So I stopped eating and tried to ride it out. Other than a few shot blocks I didn't really touch food for the next 5 hours until I bonked. Then I forced some food and was fine. I bet I could have eaten way earlier than waiting to bonk at hour 5.

    Any ideas? I had thought maybe I overate, but that doesn't seem like a crazy amount of food for 2 hours. I could def replace gu's with real food early in a race, but that's never ever been an issue for me. Either way, maybe I needed way more plain water in those first two hours?

    edit to add - after rereading this I wonder if it was just some combo of stuff and there's no one culprit...
    Last edited by kathleenturneroverdrive; 07-20-2021 at 11:07 AM.

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    Got a fueling mystery I've been trying to figure out. I've never had stomach issues on a big ride (am able to eat gels, gu, drink mix, food, etc. as needed although I prefer normal food), but I got my ass kicked by some sort of fueling error a few weeks back:

    - I camped out the night before a gravel race/ride (110 miles, 10k vert, 90 degree high temps). Drank lots of water/was well hydrated, had a big dinner, did have one beer. Slept like crap - maybe 2 - 4 hours max. I have 3 kids so leeping poorly before a ride isn't a huge deal.
    - Woke up, had a bagel with peanut butter at 6am, and started riding at 7 am. First 21 miles/2 hours of the race climbed 4k vert. 3k of that occurred from mile 11 - 21.
    - I spent the climb with the lead group of 6. The first hour of that was between endurance and sweet spot, the second hour was at or right below threshold (based on heart rate - I don't have power on this bike).
    - During those two hours I drank one bottle of GU Roctane energy drink (mixed with 1L of water) + 2 gus during the climb. Did not drink normal water. Had a 3rd gu at the top.
    - During the descent I started to get sharp pains in my stomach. At the bottom, I had a single shot block and a little drink mix and it was like someone punched me in the stomach. Every little bit of food I tried to eat for the next hour just caused more and more stomach pain. So I stopped eating and tried to ride it out. Other than a few shot blocks I didn't really touch food for the next 5 hours until I bonked. Then I forced some food and was fine. I bet I could have eaten way earlier than waiting to bonk at hour 5.

    Any ideas? I had thought maybe I overate, but that doesn't seem like a crazy amount of food for 2 hours. I could def replace gu's with real food early in a race, but that's never ever been an issue for me. Either way, maybe I needed way more plain water in those first two hours?

    edit to add - after rereading this I wonder if it was just some combo of stuff and there's no one culprit...
    Have you used these products / Eaten a PB Bagel in the past without issue? In similar circumstances?

    1. I don't think you over-ate. I also don't think the poor sleep compromised you (acutely in this instance).
    2. Did your Roctane have caffeine? Is that normal for you?
    3. Roctane has BCAAs, historically these have caused stomach pain for me.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    This all sounds right to me. My big problem has historically been waking at like 0230 with the mind racing. I try to leave the bedroom and read National Geographic or The New Yorker for an hour or so, and it almost always works to get me quieted down and ready to go back to sleep. The worst is when I toss and turn for an hour or more before getting out of bed.

    Whenever I take a break from alcohol I sleep much better. I'm not a heavy drinker, but even a 5% beer at 2100 seems to have a noticeable effect on my sleep. When I'm abstaining completely I will sometimes spend less time in bed but actually feel more rested over the course of a week or so.

    My understanding (XTR?) is that cramping is much more tied to fatigue than electrolyte intake and that outside of extreme sweating for very long durations almost no one actually needs to supplement with salt or other minerals while exercising. My own personal experience is that I've cramped maybe twice on rides in the last 25 years, so I'm not worried about it either way.

    I just volunteered again last weekend at the Tahoe Rim Trail ultra run. We have a huge aid station that runners pass multiple times on their loops with a shitload of food choices, and it's really interesting watching what the runners eat and drink. The fast ones, who are actually running, usually just want some drink mix in their bottles/bladders and then jet right out of there. (They will be finishing the 50 in ~8-9h, or the 100mi in ~20-26h.) As the race goes on the fast ones will sometimes eat some watermelon, and boiled potatoes dipped in salt is popular. They really eat very little compared with what cyclists would eat, though, but I think that's just because running makes it hard to keep anything down.

    The fascinating eating really comes after about 15 hours for the slower runners (really mostly walkers at this point) who will be taking 30+ hours for the 100mi. They like all sorts of random shit like pickles and pickle juice, chips, soda, Ensure, rice balls dipped in soy sauce, turkey & cheese sandwiches, vegetable broth, miso soup, etc. Later in the night we give them quesadillas, tater tots (can't keep up with demand for those), sweet potato fries, beer, whiskey, tequila. Many of them really like salty stuff, but honestly I think it's more just what they can tolerate rather than what would be optimal for fueling. We do give out the E-Caps, but limit people to 2 each. The people who want those swear by them, but again I think it's impossible to extract the placebo effect.
    Cramping is such a difficult topic as the etiology is varied depending on the person.

    Purely electrolyte imbalance based cramping is, on paper, a less likely cause as the cramping ought to systemic (throughout the body) because the imbalance is not local to a specific muscle. This is likely to blame when the cramping is not associated with the working muscle.

    Fatigue / localized based theories include leaky sarcoplasmic reticulum, lack of carbohydrate availability, etc.

    However, it is possible that lower electrolyte levels can exacerbate the localized issues, leading to cramps in specific muscles.

    1. If someone doesn't have an issue with cramping, then they do not need to make any changes.
    2. If someone does have an issue with cramping, increased electrolytes (and carbohydrate intake) is an easy solution to try.

  14. #264
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    oh yeah - good question - all this food was super normal for me. Bread/PB in the morning, Roctane, etc. have all worked on other race/long days. The Roctane does have 35mg of caffeine per serving. I'll look into BCAA (I'm super new to fueling strategy stuff)

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post

    A few grams of glycine, 100-200 mg of L-theanine, and a few hundred mg of Mg, either alone or in combination, are all worth trying.

    I think you want it to be sweet. I've seen discussion of studies where simply swishing a sugary drink around athletes' mouths and then spitting it out improved performance (no effect with an equally sweet non-caloric drink). The hypothesis being that you have receptors in your mouth and esophagus that can detect glucose and this triggers your brain to take the brakes off before the calories even hit your bloodstream. I'd be curious to know if Pickles is familiar with these studies and whether the results have been interpreted correctly.

    .
    Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with them. Interestingly it seems they help both in carbohydrate limited and non-limited events.

    E.g.
    1. It helps if you're bonking
    2. It also helps if you are starting a short and hard time-trial fully fueled.

    Many pro-tour cyclists will race prologues and TT with a "shot-block" in their cheek to leverage this gain.

    However, I always give this caveat:
    If you do not deliver the carbohydrate the body is expecting, you are going to end up in a worse state. So, only do this in one of two conditions.

    1. You are doing something short / hard effort and food in your stomach is going to cause distress (e.g. before a Cyclocross Race)
    2. You are bonking and you cannot keep food down and you need something, anything, to get yourself out of trouble.

    Otherwise you might as well eat the food and take in the calories your body thinks it's getting.

    Regarding drink sweetness, I think it depends on the end-goal. I'm OK with a drink being less sweet as you still will get the increased blood sugar benefits, there just may be a time-delay as there is no endogenous release of CHO to fill the gap while the exogenous CHO is being digested.

    Regarding Sleep Supplements: I *think* I've had good luck with glycine & ZMA supplementation for improved quality.

    Some more info here: https://examine.com/topics/sleep-quality/

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    However, it is possible that lower electrolyte levels can exacerbate the localized issues, leading to cramps in specific muscles.
    Mine always start in my quads. Trying to stretch it out can then sometimes lead to a hammy seizing up. But, as noted, I seem to have it licked for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    Otherwise you might as well eat the food and take in the calories your body thinks it's getting.
    Hah, yeah, I'm certainly not suggesting you should just swish and spit, it's just a fascinating phenomenon. Good to know that it doesn't matter if you're actually taking in calories. I'm definitely more likely to drink more if it's sweet, and at least for me malto has always had a chalkiness to it that I find unpleasant and you don't get with dextrose.
    Last edited by Dantheman; 07-21-2021 at 07:25 PM.

  17. #267
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    From earlier in the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EWG View Post
    I've spent a long time chasing down a solution to this problem and I'll pass on what I know.

    There is no single cause of cramping. Everyone is different, and many folks have multiple issues that they need to solve. I won't go into the why it happens (though again, Pickles could likely give quite a lecture on the physiology if that is of interest) but here are some of the things that seem to help, in order of impact:

    1. Sleep. By far the most impactful thing for most people as far as my experience. If you are training hard and not sleeping you are setting yourself up for a series of issues, cramping being one. (I think this book is great, by the way, and this is partially covered here: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Go-Athle.../dp/039325433X)

    2. Calcium/Magnesium supplements. They really do work. Lots of them are marketing under names like "sport legs" but I've found you can just use bulk stuff from Costco.

    3. Tylenol. Little known, but Tylenol can enhance endurance and seems to fight cramps. Not sure how - I read a number of studies on this which seem to be totally gone from my mind now. Would not recommend this be a routine supplement for obvious reasons.

    4. Salts. Heavy doses. I like the Gatorade gatorlytes, but only half the pouches at a time. https://www.amazon.com/Gatorade-Endu.../dp/B0050Q4DJS. In theory this is far better for long efforts, but it seems to help me for stuff between 1 and 2 hours.

    5. Fluids with carbs. I am always surprised at how little impact this seems to have, but in extreme circumstances (ie, you just aren't drinking or eating at all) it can get you out of the hole. Most non-beginner people naturally eat and drink enough to keep from cramping from due to this however (in my experience). (now, drinking/eating enough to maintain performance is a different issue entirely)

    6. Pickle juice, mustard, etc. Yeah, anecdotally helps. I understand the theory behind the mechanism, just not sure it's not placebo.

    7. Ok, this one is weird: phosphoric acid. As in, don't drink it (it's a major ingredient in most soft drinks.) My wife is a human health scientist and she worked with this guy who swore up and down that it pulled calcium out of your system and could cause muscle cramps under high loads. I did not believe it, but tried it. It worked for me. I don't think it was placebo, and there is science behind it.

    8. Potassium. Again, makes sense in theory, but rarely the issue in my experience.


    Hope this helps.



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  18. #268
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    Loving this thread!

    For the people working on fueling, I have to put a plug for Spring Energy. They are gu/gel-like, real-food based, and I haven't had any stomach issues with them (though my stomach is pretty tolerable, I think). I use them for trail running but cyclists might enjoy them too. Boulder-based. https://myspringenergy.com/

    A few grams of glycine, 100-200 mg of L-theanine, and a few hundred mg of Mg, either alone or in combination, are all worth trying.
    Regarding Sleep Supplements: I *think* I've had good luck with glycine & ZMA supplementation for improved quality.
    Thanks, DTM and Pickels. I noticed you didn't mention melatonin - unless I missed it - any reason why? I've had good success with melatonin (like 0.5 mg) but wake up a tiny bit out of it. Would love to avoid that: does glycine, et. al. make you feel that way? And if you take glycine, et. al., for a few nights in a row, is it hard to sleep the night you stop using it?

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool View Post
    Loving this thread!

    For the people working on fueling, I have to put a plug for Spring Energy. They are gu/gel-like, real-food based, and I haven't had any stomach issues with them (though my stomach is pretty tolerable, I think). I use them for trail running but cyclists might enjoy them too. Boulder-based. https://myspringenergy.com/





    Thanks, DTM and Pickels. I noticed you didn't mention melatonin - unless I missed it - any reason why? I've had good success with melatonin (like 0.5 mg) but wake up a tiny bit out of it. Would love to avoid that: does glycine, et. al. make you feel that way? And if you take glycine, et. al., for a few nights in a row, is it hard to sleep the night you stop using it?
    I didn't recommend melatonin for exactly what you noticed: I tend to feel "off" in the morning, not unlike an antihistamine.

    Glycine does not have that effect at all. Just feel more rested when I wake up.

  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Mine always start in my quads. Trying to stretch it out can then sometimes lead to a hammy seizing up. But, as noted, I seem to have it licked for now.
    As an alternative theory (and I'm not trying to convince you to reduce your salt intake), read through this with the consideration that your hamstring is in a shortened position when you are stretching your quads:
    https://sportsscientists.com/2007/11...amps-part-iii/

  21. #271
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    I've also never noticed any detrimental effects from glycine. There's good evidence that almost no one gets enough glycine from diet alone for optimum health (https://link.springer.com/article/10...038-009-0100-9 ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5350494/) so supplementing with it probably carries additional benefits. Plus, it's very sweet, almost as sweet as sugar. It's a great alternative to sugar for sweetening anything where you dissolve it in water.

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    As an alternative theory (and I'm not trying to convince you to reduce your salt intake), read through this with the consideration that your hamstring is in a shortened position when you are stretching your quads:
    https://sportsscientists.com/2007/11...amps-part-iii/
    I think that's exactly what's happening when the hammys seize up. They're also fatigued but not as much as the quads, then they get placed in a very shortened position for an extended period and bam, now you're Elaine dancing on the side of the trail while both sides of your leg fire out of control.

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    I think that's exactly what's happening when the hammys seize up. They're also fatigued but not as much as the quads, then they get placed in a very shortened position for an extended period and bam, now you're Elaine dancing on the side of the trail while both sides of your leg fire out of control.
    Mine get me every time I bend over the change my shoes at the end of a long ride or when I'm driving away. Pure Agony.

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    I didn't recommend melatonin for exactly what you noticed: I tend to feel "off" in the morning, not unlike an antihistamine.

    Glycine does not have that effect at all. Just feel more rested when I wake up.
    How much glycine do you take to sleep?
    I take mine in the morning, maybe i should switch.
    I didn't know it promotes sleep.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

  25. #275
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    Did a big ride this past weekend and had a few observations to share and questions to ask! The ride was a combo of a big backcountry mountain bike ride and a road/gravel ride home from the mountain bike ride. Total time in the saddle was about 6.5 hours:

    MTB - 23 mi, 4200'
    Gravel - 45 mi, 1500'

    I stuffed my face (as suggested) from the beginning of the MTB ride and honestly felt better at the end than at the beginning. The route is known for really tough climbs (HAB) but I felt like I had a ton of energy at the end of the ride so I transitioned to the gravel bike and kept going.

    I ate mostly Honey Stinger chews with a few granola bars, some jerky, peanut M&Ms, chips, and a pulled port sandwich. I drank the Gatorade Endurance (probably 1500ml) and about 1500ml of straight water.

    Thinking that the gravel section was relatively short and relatively flat I left with about 750ml GE and 750 straight water. I don't think I realized that I was already on the verge of dehydration. I rode great for the first 30 miles, then promptly ran out of water. Running out of water had the effect of me not wanting to put any more food in me because I didn't have enough liquids to digest it properly. I started to spiral and sought out water.

    I ended up with another 1500ml of water that I drank fairly quickly. Another 750ml would have been great. At this point I struggled to recover - when I stopped drinking, I stopped eating. When I stopped eating I started to run out of energy and rode the last 15 miles pretty slow. The guy that I saw on the e-bike at this point really pissed me off.

    Observations:
    1. This training plan has been really good for me. I finished the same MTB ride last year and couldn't have even considered the gravel ride afterward.
    2. I think my nutrition plan (stuff your face, try to get a lot of carbs) was a good strategy and seemed to work really well for the majority.
    3. I didn't take the road/gravel portion seriously enough and I should have recognized the hydration issue a lot sooner.
    3b. I can continue to eat as long as I have water to drink. In addition to making sure I have food in the pouch, I need to make sure my bottles are full (and/or get bigger ones).

    Question(s):
    1. Realizing that the best defense is a good offense, if you start going downhill, how do you recover?

    Thanks in advance!

    Seth

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