Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Should I be doing anything to tailor my training over the next 6 weeks to add more climbing or mileage?

If you're fine doing 70 miles/5k vert and your race is 90/8k I would think you're already ready for the race. From my POV an extra 20 miles/3k vert isn't asking a lot more of your body. Unless the race has super rough roads that would add a few hours to your day?

On the 12-hour race question - I personally like to do a big ride with a few race pace efforts a week out from a race, but I do that effort on a gravel bike where 50 miles/8k vert is a long, but doable morning ride. I wonder how much more 12 hours on a mtn bike would beat you up? That said, it probably just depends on what your goal is for the gravel race. Are you wanting to go all out and hit a specific time? Or just have fun?

[sethschmautz]

If you're fine doing 70 miles/5k vert and your race is 90/8k I would think you're already ready for the race. From my POV an extra 20 miles/3k vert isn't asking a lot more of your body. Unless the race has super rough roads that would add a few hours to your day?

On the 12-hour race question - I personally like to do a big ride with a few race pace efforts a week out from a race, but I do that effort on a gravel bike where 50 miles/8k vert is a long, but doable morning ride. I wonder how much more 12 hours on a mtn bike would beat you up? That said, it probably just depends on what your goal is for the gravel race. Are you wanting to go all out and hit a specific time? Or just have fun?

I appreciate the thought process. I'm splitting the 12 hour ride with a riding buddy so I'll really probably only be doing 6 hours of riding (give or take) but the mileage and vert is probably relatively accurate.

I think I'll probably do the 12 hour ride and plan on riding a few laps hard and most laps more slowly. The rest of that week will be rest.

The objective is to go all out. I'm going to try to ride both parts of the loop to get a feel for how long it should take. I will come up with a target time from those pre-rides.

Seth

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[XtrPickels]

Just came in to post this:

I got my regular annual check-up and bloodwork done today. 9-10 hour fasting Glucose was 102. That's pretty high for fasting.

Did they do a Hemoglobin A1c?
This will give a better picture of your blood sugar over the past few months.

[Dantheman]

Did they do a Hemoglobin A1c?
This will give a better picture of your blood sugar over the past few months.

I was reading recently that healthy active people's RBCs live longer, and are thus more likely to end up glycated which can make your A1c run a little high. Any truth to that? Last time mine was checked it was 5.2 IIRC.

[XtrPickels]

I was reading recently that healthy active people's RBCs live longer, and are thus more likely to end up glycated which can make your A1c run a little high. Any truth to that? Last time mine was checked it was 5.2 IIRC.

I hadn't seen that.
Link?

[Dantheman]

I'm having trouble finding the exact article, but this covers the same idea:
https://www.mlo-online.com/disease/d...1c-measurement
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18694998/

Those focus more on reduced RBC survival in unhealthy patients. I think improved RBC survival in extra-healthy/fit people may have been inferred.

edit: This is also not the article I was thinking of, but it does show that endurance training improves RBC aging, and longer-lived RBCs should be more likely to end up glycated
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...95254619300225

[Tailwind]

Bouncing an idea out there for feedback.

I'm doing the Pierre's Hole 100 on August 7th which I have about four more weeks until the event. I feel plenty fast over short distances these days (intervals have been great there) but I'm mainly worried about how much power I'm putting out at mile 80 (and onward). Last week I did 5 days of riding (2 days of intervals, 3 endurance days) with about 17 hours on the bike and 24K of climbing. This is a bit more volume than I've typically done but overall I don't feel tanked.

My plan has been to basically repeat this for the next two weeks then two weeks prior to the race dropping to 10ish hours on the bike and taking a light week leading up to the race.

If my goal is to build endurance for hour 6 and onward is there anything else I should be doing?

[climberevan]

Bouncing an idea out there for feedback.

I'm doing the Pierre's Hole 100 on August 7th which I have about four more weeks until the event. I feel plenty fast over short distances these days (intervals have been great there) but I'm mainly worried about how much power I'm putting out at mile 80 (and onward). Last week I did 5 days of riding (2 days of intervals, 3 endurance days) with about 17 hours on the bike and 24K of climbing. This is a bit more volume than I've typically done but overall I don't feel tanked.

My plan has been to basically repeat this for the next two weeks then two weeks prior to the race dropping to 10ish hours on the bike and taking a light week leading up to the race.

If my goal is to build endurance for hour 6 and onward is there anything else I should be doing?

You can't make meaningful long-distance endurance improvements in 2 weeks, but it sounds like you're ok. Remember to absolutely stuff your face on the big day starting from the first few minutes. Small deficits in fueling early on will really hurt you after 6 hours. If you aren't already doing it, you have some time to practice getting in 80+g of carbs an hour, and figuring out what works for you.

[Dantheman]

Last week I did 5 days of riding (2 days of intervals, 3 endurance days) with about 17 hours on the bike and 24K of climbing. This is a bit more volume than I've typically done but overall I don't feel tanked.

Is your goal to finish in a respectable time or to be competitive with the fastest guys? Because for the former you sound more than prepared.

[Tailwind]

The stretch goal would be a podium spot but we'll see how feasible that is. I did a 100K race in June that I was a little undertrained for as I didn't really get on the bike until late April. I finished around 9 minutes off the podium after fading pretty hard in the last 10 miles.

More than anything I want to feel like I prepared well and did my best. So I'm trying to optimize my last couple of weeks and see what happens. It seems like the logical answer is two weeks of long hours riding but I'm wondering if there is something beyond that.

Is your goal to finish in a respectable time or to be competitive with the fastest guys? Because for the former you sound more than prepared.

I feel pretty good from a nutrition level. I typically do a gel per hour, a bottle with 300ish calories, and whatever else I can get down. That seems to be a pretty solid routine but I don't think I'm hitting 80 grams of carbs with that. I'll do some math.

If you aren't already doing it, you have some time to practice getting in 80+g of carbs an hour, and figuring out what works for you.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I missed this the first time. Going very low carb for extended periods causes physiological insulin resistance in peripheral tissues--your body reduces the ability of your muscles and liver to take up glucose so that it's available for your brain. This leads to relatively high fasting glucose levels.

Most of the CGM companies now have networks of doctors they can refer you to if a local doctor won't prescribe you one. Should be no problem doing this with a virtual visit these days. I think the newest 23andMe tests include the genes known to predispose you to diabetes. Do you have a family history?

I don't have a family history that I know of (adpoted) but I have some type of mixed latino blood and latinos are more susceptible to diabetes.

The DNA testing stuff weirds me out. :::tightens tinfoil hat:::

[sethschmautz]

Remember to absolutely stuff your face on the big day starting from the first few minutes. Small deficits in fueling early on will really hurt you after 6 hours. If you aren't already doing it, you have some time to practice getting in 80+g of carbs an hour, and figuring out what works for you.

What are you using to fuel? I'm sure that I'm not fueling enough, but I need to do the math. What kinds of food are you eating? How often? My current training has me drinking at least every 15 min and eating at least every 30 min. But looking at the numbers it would appear that I'm consuming roughly 35g/hr of carbs and 168cal/hr. Eating/Drinking primarily Gatorade Endurance mix and a combo of Honey Stingers Chews and waffles. My body seems to be happy with all of that.

[sethschmautz]

Now that I'm getting a bit closer to the ride, I'm doing a better job of aiming for and hitting my training targets, durations, and zones. I'm trying to stay primarily in Z2 and Z4/Z5. How does this translate to what I should be shooting for in the actual event? On longer rides I'm finding myself wanting to ride in Z3/Z4 (low end).

[Dantheman]

The DNA testing stuff weirds me out. :::tightens tinfoil hat:::

Same here. 23andMe's privacy policy has improved quite a bit, but they can change it on a whim at any time in the future if they desire. Overly paranoid? Possibly, and I was just listening to a podcast with David Sinclair where he recommended getting it done. But, I'm not sure I'm ready to go there yet, especially since $200 still isn't that cheap.

What are you using to fuel? I'm sure that I'm not fueling enough, but I need to do the math. What kinds of food are you eating? How often? My current training has me drinking at least every 15 min and eating at least every 30 min. But looking at the numbers it would appear that I'm consuming roughly 35g/hr of carbs and 168cal/hr. Eating/Drinking primarily Gatorade Endurance mix and a combo of Honey Stingers Chews and waffles. My body seems to be happy with all of that.

Liquids are easiest. Mix up the GE way stronger than recommended, like 120-150 g of carbs per 16 oz water. It's still a bit tough to hit 80 g/hr but easier than with solid food. I've been trying to follow evan's advice on this and while I'm usually not quite hitting the target I've been feeling stronger on the ups than just about ever. Don't get me wrong, I'm still slow AF climbing, but I took all last year off recovering from a head injury so feeling as good as I do is a big personal achievement.

I've worked out a recipe for homemade GE/Tailwind that's tasty and costs pennies on the dollar. If you want the recipe let me know.

[climberevan]

Liquids are easiest. Mix up the GE way stronger than recommended, like 120-150 g of carbs per 16 oz water. It's still a bit tough to hit 80 g/hr but easier than with solid food. .

Liquids are easier, for sure. I wouldn't go more than about 240 kCal for a 24oz bottle, though, unless you're also drinking water from your pack and using the bottle just for calories. I often employ this method on the MTB to avoid putting mix in my bladder.

I also use a homemade mix. If it's a <2hr ride I'll use about 40g (160kC) to 60g of maltodextrin with a little salt and unsweetened Kool aid lemonade mix. This is barely sweet. For longer rides I usually use a 2:1 blend of maltodextrin and fructose because one can absorb more that way (malto is mostly glucose and the gut has different pathways for different sugars). Fructose is sweet though so this mix is fairly sweet when mixed strongly. I basically drink when thirsty, which equates to about 1 big bottle an hour or less if it's cooler.

I also eat solid food. My mainstay is homemade rice bars, which are prob around 200kC each. I have a sweet and a savory version and usually alternate so that I'm eating about one every 50 minutes. On rides 6+ hours I usually supplement with Nature Valley granola bars and Nature's Bakery fig bars because the rice bars are really heavy and bulky.

So, for a ~65 mile, 11,000' day of singletrack like I did a while back on Peavine near Reno I had like 5 or 6 bottles of mix plus 2 or so liters of mix in the bladder. I think I ate 6 or 7 bars that day in 7:15 of moving time. That's was basically a tempo pace all day. If it's harder, like a race effort, I'd prob try to eat even more or at least bias it more toward liquid gels. For a noodling ride, I'd eat somewhat less.

Everyone is different in terms of what their gut can tolerate. Mine is pretty indiscriminate, but others might need to really experiment to get it right. The universal thing, though, is that you need to fuel the work, and it seems most people can absorb at most 90g/hr.

[Dantheman]

unless you're also drinking water from your pack and using the bottle just for calories.

This is what I've been doing. Recipe for the rice bars?

Dates are also pretty great. Minimal water content, easy to chew, good mineral content, and just two dates have ~35 g carbs.

[climberevan]

This is what I've been doing. Recipe for the rice bars?

Dates are also pretty great. Minimal water content, easy to chew, good mineral content, and just two dates have ~35 g carbs.

Basic rice bar recipe:

2c white sushi style rice
1/2c coconut flakes
1t salt
1t ginger
1t vanilla extract
5c water

Cook it low and slow.

When it cools, mix in 2/3c or so of yogurt or cream cheese and maple syrup/brown rice syrup/Aunt Jemima syrup to taste. You can add chocolate chips, chopped dates, or whatever you want, but don't go crazy or they won't hold together..

Spread it out in a flat cake pan about 3/4-1" thick, and cut into squares. I think we get about 15pc per recipe. Wrap in foil. We can usually get at least 2 uses out of each piece of foil, so the system saves waste too.

I also make a variation that is like a slightly spicy dal-baht bar, which might not be for everyone but I like them a lot.

[XtrPickels]

Now that I'm getting a bit closer to the ride, I'm doing a better job of aiming for and hitting my training targets, durations, and zones. I'm trying to stay primarily in Z2 and Z4/Z5. How does this translate to what I should be shooting for in the actual event? On longer rides I'm finding myself wanting to ride in Z3/Z4 (low end).

Seth, not sure if you're asking about the 12 hour race or the other big ride, so I'll answer generally.

On big days (for going A-B as fast as possible), I tend to climb in Low-mid Zone 4, pushing to Zone 5 when the terrain demands it (ie, I can't really go any slower). I'll only go harder than Z5 up a steep grade if it's a short spurt, otherwise I tend to get off and power hike.

On flats I aim for Mid Zone 3. I also try to conserve as much as possible, being smooth, not pedaling where I don't need to, etc.

On days longer than 6 hours, I tend to drop down half a zone.
E.g. Climb at Low Z4, Flats at high Z2 / Low Z3,

[radam]

I'd definitely be interested in the drink recipe.

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[Dantheman]

I'd definitely be interested in the drink recipe.

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Mine is 250 g dextrose, 150 g sucrose, 5 g fine non-iodized salt, 2 g potassium citrate, 15 g True Lemon powder, 5 g citric acid. Tastes like lemonade. You can adjust the lemon and citric acid to taste. 1 tbs is 9-10 g carbs, about 3:1 glucose:fructose.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

I’m curious - what’s the plus is that drink vs say something like a gu roctane drink mix?

[climberevan]

I’m curious - what’s the plus is that drink vs say something like a gu roctane drink mix?

Cost.

[sethschmautz]

Seth, not sure if you're asking about the 12 hour race or the other big ride, so I'll answer generally...

Thanks a ton. I've been very consistent in my training - feeling really good and enjoying the process. Thanks for all of the great advice and answers to questions you've given. I'm learning a ton. Thanks also DTM and Climberevan - I appreciate the insight!

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[radam]

So I know there is a growing body of research that supports sleep as one of the most beneficial recovery tools. I've done my best to adjust some of my habits to encourage better sleep and am at a point where unless its stiflingly hot or my brain is really wound up thinking about something, I generally fall asleep very easily. But I don't feel like I stay asleep very well. Sometimes its just being up a few times in the night for a few minutes, other times its waking up at 2am feeling like I am done sleeping (but also in no way rested). Have there been any studies done to research how various sleep aids would affect sleep's recovery benefits? I occasionally will take some benadryl to help with sleep but I feel like I had read somewhere that it can interfere with your body's ability to go into whatever phase of sleep where most recovery takes place. I have been trying to avoid it as a precautionary measure. I do take some melatonin (even though the studies I have read suggest a fairly weak sleep benefit) as particularly in the summer months with it being light to late I can have a little more trouble winding down even with a good nighttime routine.

tl:dr, Like most people, I feel better when I sleep more but I'm not sleeping as much as I'd like. Are stronger sleep aids worthwhile or no?

[climberevan]

So I know there is a growing body of research that supports sleep as one of the most beneficial recovery tools. ?

Sleep is so important that is not really a "recovery tool" so much as a prerequisite for any hope of decent performance. As much as people still neglect it, though, I can understand how it's come to be seen as a tool like foam rolling or something.

Anecdotally, I can cite cannabis as a useful tool. A small draw from an indica vape really helps to shut down the busy brain, and my GF loves tinctures or gummies to help get a full night of what we call Dead Person Style sleep. It's an easy, cheap, and no side effect thing to try, anyway. (Unless you live in a backwards place where it's still illegal, I guess.) 10 hours of DPS really does a body good!

I'm looking forward to others' suggestions on this front.