to Split or not to Split?

[lorcar]

Nice day yesterday, close to Italian/Swiss border, sunny day, getting hot.
Was with 3 friends with splitboard, while i was with my snowshoes and Hovercraft on my backpack.
My friends have been splitting for few years now, however NO ONE of them is stoked about the splitboard. They use it, but do complain about issues in going up or down (heavy, snow under the skins, crampons not allowing to slide efficiently, chattering in going down vs a normal snowboard).
I am pondering to pull the trigger and switch from snowshoes to splitboard, however every time i talk to them i wonder if i should do it or not.
I found many posts/websites on the subject, but pretty old, so i guess splitboards/bindings/etc have been upgraded and improved a lot during the last few years.
I understand though that splitboarding IS NOT the same as skinning with skis, while i thought they would be the same in terms of efficiency while going up.

What do you suggest? has any of you transitioned from snowshoes to split?
any advice is welcome.
thank you in advance.

[El Kanone]

Welcome to 1996

[gregL]

Of my friends who are very good snowboarders wanting to tour, about 1/3 of them use various splitboard setups to tour (most graduating to Phantom after trying others). The other 2/3 learned to ski.

[danmelon]

More efficient than snowshoes especially when there are long approaches but obviously less efficient than skis.

Learning to get comfortable on skis would be a real benefit IME if you want to start splitboarding. I do a lot of cross country skiing when I can't get out to tour and it has vastly improved my splitboarding.

I'm personally not convinced about splitting with hardboots, but then again i am in eastern North America so going in the alpine is not common and soft boots are fine for the terrain i tour in. If i was regularly getting in big mountains, i might try it out, but even then i am skeptical. I have heard that for all the advantages of hard boots, the dis-advantage is you loose that close connection to the board ("the feel"). "The feel" is also why people tele (so i've heard) so maybe that's not a valid reason for some.

Edit to add: I used to ride a DIY split, and yes board performance was a factor but since switching to a factory made split I find it is not really a noticeable issue in my case.

[Samski360]

I am a skier but some of my close touring partners are split-boarders. By their accounts the technology has improved tremendously over the past few years in terms of ride quality and transitions. At the end of the day, kind of depends on what kind of terrain you want to ride. If you want to go straight up and straight back down for a single run, maybe your setup still works. But you’ll be very limited in the sense that you’ll never be able to travel through the mountains in any efficient way. Splitboards are a joke compared to skis in terms of touring efficiently. That’s why many snowboarders end up learning to ski once they get into the backcountry. Snowboard + snowshoes are a joke compared to splitboard in terms of touring efficiency. 0% of skiers want to tour with someone on snow shoes (this might be an argument in snow shoes favor depending on your perspective). In my experience, touring efficiency is more important that absolute fitness in terms of how much quality skiing/riding you do in a day

All of that is to say, if you plan on spending more time hiking for your turns, invest in a modern split board or learn to ski. The efficiency gains will get you more turns and make you a better backcountry partner.

[lorcar]

thank you very much. Understood.
Final question, and believe me it is a sincere question, i am not a troll, but unfortunately ignore the answer which might seem obvious to you.
Why skis are more efficient than split? what's the main difference? just the width? or there is more? at the end i thought that the skin under the ski/split was the same and provide the same glide/grip.

thanks a lot in advance

[hatchgreenchile]

If you want to snowboard in the backcountry, accept the well known limitations of shoes and splits and deal with it. Learning to ski is no solution!

I switched from shoes ~5 years ago. There are occasional times that I'd prefer them (ex. some steeper terrain , prefer a one piece board), but a split still wins 9/10 times.

[Samski360]

It’s a fair question if you haven’t been touring with skiers much. I think there are a few ways to think about it. The most significant are transitions. To transition skis, you buckle your boots, lock your heels, and can remove your skins without taking your skis off. Most experienced ski tourers can transition in 1-3 minutes without too much fuss. Adding layers and fussing with helmet/goggles may take an extra minute or two. In comparison, with a split board, you have to unstrap both boots, remove both skins, remove both bindings, assemble the board, reattach the bindings (often with a little de-icing, depending on the snow conditions) then strap on the board. Then you do the opposite at the bottom. I end up waiting around 5 minutes at each transition for splitboarder buddies, even ones who transition fairly quickly. If you make 5 laps in a day, that’s around 50 minutes of standing around. (5 bottom transitions and 5 top transitions, 5 min wait time per transition). Obviously if youre only transitioning once, and plan on hanging out in a summit for a bit, the transitioning efficiency become less of an issue.

Second, In terms of skinning, the efficiency has to do with weight and flats. With modern ski touring equipment, the boot attaches to the binding at the toe, so you’re not lifting an entire binding during each step. In contrast, unless you go hard boot, you’re lifting an entire binding on each step. I don’t know apples to apples weight comparisons between ski and splitboarder weights, but assuming equal total weights, lifting an extra couple of ounces each step over the course of a day will equal a significant difference in energy output.

The final thing as danmelon alludes to is traversing in split mode. On skis, you can negotiate weird downhill/off camber traverses fairly naturally. On a split, unless you develop experience, that 20 foot downhill off camber traverse around an outcropping on an exposed ridge line becomes a bit of a chore.

Finally, there’s the issue of flat run outs. Skiers can skate, pole, or sidestep to get through flats in the backcountry. If a splitboarder loses momentum, they either have to boot, or transition. When the snow is deep, booting is not an option. So a transition is required. Another case where what is a simple task for a skier can take an extra 10-20min for a splitboarder.

When you add it up, the same tour could take a splitboarder an extra hour compared to a skier of equivalent ability. Time isn’t everything, but it can be the difference between getting that extra lap in, or getting back to the car before dark.

Like I said, some of my best touring partners are splitboarders, so I don’t mean to bag on it. There’s a reason they still board, and it’s because they can’t give up the feeling of surfing pow. But backcountry snowboarding, whether splitboard or snow shoes is going to create challenges that skiers almost never face.

[mufasa5446]

Some of my best touring partners are also snowboarders, and you won’t catch any of them on snowshoes. They love their splitboard’s, tech has come a long way. They’re also really freaking good at it and take about the same amount of time to transition - but there’s certainly a learning curve.

That said, when you start hitting long flat stretches back to the car, it changes things, but they’re plenty adept so it’s usually find


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[Dee Hubbs]

I read this title and though "wow, this should really be in the padded room".

[XXX-er]

I've toured with a couple of splitting assistant guides, they had No trouble keeping up, they can be pretty fast on transitions but they probably had the poles more often on the down ready to help the clients ect some skiers are slow in transitions as well so IME its more about the skier/border than the discipline

My kid is a pretty good border in great shape who had skied until 12, he was considering getting into the BC so i told him if you can't ski go split but you can ski SO consider coming back to the darkside for the BC

so we got him setup with good boots, a nice 2 yr old ski setup for 1/3rd of list , we did a hut trip and he did really well, didnt even fall once

I hear from a shop bro the challenge right now is to find split board gear to stock for retail sale due to covid kind of the same way the bike industry is having supply issues

[durangobrad]

Splitboarding has come a long way in the past few years. Lots of manufacturers making boards and binding tech coming a long way.

Lots of guides being certified (AMGA), most if not all are using hardboot setups, specifically Phantom

https://www.phantomsnow.com/pages/tech-boots

Ive been using their stuff for 5 or 6 years. Started using Dynafit TLTs with some modifications and now using the Atomic Backland with Phantoms link lever. The ride and feel is great and the efficiency on the way up is that of a skier (even better IMO for kick turns, shorter boards.)

I can transition as fast as my skier buddies, but they are probably slow....

Also has the ability to "lock" your boots down in ski mode using a voile strap. I have used this a handful of times for long, icy out tracks and it worked great.

[Judo Chop!]

get a snowmobile

[lorcar]

It’s a fair question if you haven’t been touring with skiers much. I think there are a few ways to think about it. The most significant are transitions. To transition skis, you buckle your boots, lock your heels, and can remove your skins without taking your skis off. Most experienced ski tourers can transition in 1-3 minutes without too much fuss. Adding layers and fussing with helmet/goggles may take an extra minute or two. In comparison, with a split board, you have to unstrap both boots, remove both skins, remove both bindings, assemble the board, reattach the bindings (often with a little de-icing, depending on the snow conditions) then strap on the board. Then you do the opposite at the bottom. I end up waiting around 5 minutes at each transition for splitboarder buddies, even ones who transition fairly quickly. If you make 5 laps in a day, that’s around 50 minutes of standing around. (5 bottom transitions and 5 top transitions, 5 min wait time per transition). Obviously if youre only transitioning once, and plan on hanging out in a summit for a bit, the transitioning efficiency become less of an issue.

Second, In terms of skinning, the efficiency has to do with weight and flats. With modern ski touring equipment, the boot attaches to the binding at the toe, so you’re not lifting an entire binding during each step. In contrast, unless you go hard boot, you’re lifting an entire binding on each step. I don’t know apples to apples weight comparisons between ski and splitboarder weights, but assuming equal total weights, lifting an extra couple of ounces each step over the course of a day will equal a significant difference in energy output.

The final thing as danmelon alludes to is traversing in split mode. On skis, you can negotiate weird downhill/off camber traverses fairly naturally. On a split, unless you develop experience, that 20 foot downhill off camber traverse around an outcropping on an exposed ridge line becomes a bit of a chore.

Finally, there’s the issue of flat run outs. Skiers can skate, pole, or sidestep to get through flats in the backcountry. If a splitboarder loses momentum, they either have to boot, or transition. When the snow is deep, booting is not an option. So a transition is required. Another case where what is a simple task for a skier can take an extra 10-20min for a splitboarder.

When you add it up, the same tour could take a splitboarder an extra hour compared to a skier of equivalent ability. Time isn’t everything, but it can be the difference between getting that extra lap in, or getting back to the car before dark.

Like I said, some of my best touring partners are splitboarders, so I don’t mean to bag on it. There’s a reason they still board, and it’s because they can’t give up the feeling of surfing pow. But backcountry snowboarding, whether splitboard or snow shoes is going to create challenges that skiers almost never face.

thank you very much for the detailed and clear answer.

no idea transition was (or might be) so important. I am a novice compared to you guys, and so far i have only had experience of 4-5h ascents, then lunch break/rest, and then all down home. Have no idea you could do 5 laps...do you do the SAME path 5 times? or do you need to transition in order to go to your final destination?

only one thing is not clear. When you write "On skis, you can negotiate weird downhill/off camber traverses fairly naturally. On a split, unless you develop experience, that 20 foot downhill off camber traverse around an outcropping on an exposed ridge line becomes a bit of a chore."
Perhaps is lost in translation, my fault, but what is an "off camber traverse"? i know what is a traverse, but not sure i understand what you mean and how ski/split differ on a travers.

thanks a lot again

[danmelon]

I think the point being made is that if you plan on travelling around on skis (split skis) and you’re not comfortable on skis, you’re gonna have a bad time. Of course this comes with experience.

That being said, it’s just a matter of gaining experience and working on your technique. Learn good skinning techniques, practice things like kick turns or different ways to negotiate travelling in the mountains on skis, uphill and downhill on different kinds of snow conditions.

Sounds like you already tour with some splitboarders who are honest about the limitations of their gear and they could probably teach a lot more than reading some comments online.

Also regarding the snowboarders who turned to skiing to tour, well, were they ever even real snowboarders, man?

Cuz like, it’s not because I snowboard that I’m a snowboarder, it’s because I like, can’t not snoboard. 🤙🏼 yeeww

[beeeom]

When you add it up, the same tour could take a splitboarder an extra hour compared to a skier of equivalent ability. Time isn’t everything, but it can be the difference between getting that extra lap in, or getting back to the car before dark.

Maybe 10 minutes.

Most of my buddies are on splitties. Our transition times are the same. Maybe there will be the odd time they've gotta skootch across a flat bench. But that's arguably cause we chose a shitty flat line

[danmelon]

Maybe there will be the odd time they've gotta skootch across a flat bench. But that's arguably cause we chose a shitty flat line

That's when it's time for some good ol pole boardin. Not a real split tour unless there is a bit of bootpacking and some pole boarding.

[Samski360]

thank you very much for the detailed and clear answer.

no idea transition was (or might be) so important. I am a novice compared to you guys, and so far i have only had experience of 4-5h ascents, then lunch break/rest, and then all down home. Have no idea you could do 5 laps...do you do the SAME path 5 times? or do you need to transition in order to go to your final destination?

only one thing is not clear. When you write "On skis, you can negotiate weird downhill/off camber traverses fairly naturally. On a split, unless you develop experience, that 20 foot downhill off camber traverse around an outcropping on an exposed ridge line becomes a bit of a chore."
Perhaps is lost in translation, my fault, but what is an "off camber traverse"? i know what is a traverse, but not sure i understand what you mean and how ski/split differ on a travers.

thanks a lot again

Lots of good questions. And you’ll learn more by getting out with more experienced partners than you ever will on the internet. But I’ll try to answer the questions you posed:

Re: Laps

I think it depends on the terrain and where you live. I live in Oregon. Sometimes we climb to the top of a volcano, transition once and ski thousands of feet down. Where it’s mid winter and we have good snow, we’ll often lap a bowl or area off a ridge line.

Re: off camber traverses

In the places I’ve ski toured, you’re often skinning up a ridge. If the ridge is narrow or there’s an obstacle such as a rocky outcropping or a steep winddrift, you’ll have to drop below the ridge. So you’re traversing parallel to the fall line. You’ll need your edges to maintain the traverse. That’s a very natural movement on skis. Split boarders just need to learn to use their edges like a skier on the way up. But there’s a learning curve. As long as that curve involves some falling and laughing, it’s no big deal. But if the ridge is exposed and a no-fall, then it’s a bigger deal.

Re: transition times

I don’t think you can rely on any of the transition estimates offered in this thread as absolutes. different groups transition at different speeds. Everyone’s statements here about transition time differences are purely anecdotal, including mine.

If you’re only riding among splitboarders, transition times will probably be about the same. If you’re riding with skiers, they’ll be faster, but may appreciate the opportunity to eat a snack or whatever. My best advice is don’t try to rush transitions. Relax and enjoy your surroundings. But, be intentional with your transitions. begin your transition as soon as you stop, even if the rest of your group isn’t. You can hang out and give each other shit while also ripping skins. That way, if they transition faster than you, they don’t end up waiting on a windy ridge line while you assemble your kit.

[XXX-er]

that 1st assitant guide i toured with came from skating never skied, he was unusual in that buddy had his poles out all the time, also he had his hardboot setup at 45 degree so it appeared to be was a little easier TO pole not being as sideways, also I seem to remember him often using poles on the lower angle down somewhat like a skier and he was using these ancient super soft AT boots of which he claimed he had collected enough to last forever

we had a local do the 28000 feet on a split, last I talked to buddy he said that was the hardest thing he has done before joining special forces

[Jason4]

Skis, snowboards, snowshoes, and splitboards are all tools to get stuff done in the mountains. Skis were originally invented as a means of transportation and will always be practical and efficient. Snowboards were invented for fun and had no pressure to be practical or efficient but now splitboards are diluting the pure fun factor...

I find the only time I'm really jealous of ski partners is on true traverses or in frozen hard spring morning conditions. It would be really nice to be able to tour on something <90mm under foot if you don't need to float in pow but that won't happen as long as I need to width to eliminate toe/heel drag. That said, in technical ski terrain I'd much rather be on my snowboard than on skis because I am much more comfortable snowboarding than skiing. In breakable crust I am always much happier on a snowboard than on skis.

As for transition times: figure out a system and practice enough to get it dialed even when you bonk. I can do a full transition including adding a shell, helmet and goggles, ready to ride in less than 6 minutes. I'm not super speedy, I just have a system that I repeat every time.

The newest gear really does ride much better and weighs a lot less than it did a few years ago. I have a friend that just got an Orca split with Union bindings and it looks and feels like a solid snowboard when he's going downhill. He says it rides as well as a solid deck too.

I'm an apprentice AMGA splitboard guide, let me know if you have any other questions.

[danmelon]

I don't know about those union split binders tho.

[Jason4]

I'll stick with my Phantoms but my buddy liked the way the Unions felt when riding. There was an incredible amount of fiddling that needed to be done in order to get them locked into riding mode. Maybe the pin will loosen up over time but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

[nortonwhis]

I much prefer riding my split than riding a solid with snowshoes attached to my pack. That shit never worked for me. Did two days and never again.
I find i just try and be efficient in my transitions. If you are hustling you should only access your pack once or twice. or not at all if you just shove your skins in your jacket and keep your poles out. Avoid skin savers/bags, find poles that fit inside your pack so you're not attaching them to the outside which can be fiddly. Get in better shape so you can get to the top first and have that extra time to transition.
And if all that doesn't work for your touring partners, find new touring partners.

IMO a split will never feel as good as a solid, but they are still pretty fucking good these days. I get 0 chatter, a few days ago i hit the biggest cliff i've ever hit on my split in the resort before heading out touring in the afternoon, the bindings are stiff (the burton hitchhikers are super solid). If you like the Jones hovercraft, buy that in a split and youll be set.

[SKIP IN7RO]

thank you very much. Understood.
Final question, and believe me it is a sincere question, i am not a troll, but unfortunately ignore the answer which might seem obvious to you.
Why skis are more efficient than split? what's the main difference? just the width? or there is more? at the end i thought that the skin under the ski/split was the same and provide the same glide/grip.

thanks a lot in advance

No walk/tour mode in soft boots for splitting equals a shorter stride.

[Samski360]

My buddy just got some K2 boots with a walk mode. Not sure the model but he’s pretty stoked on them, and he rips.

I think the advice for first touring setup is the same no matter if you ski or split: buy what you can afford but don’t overextend; learn to use what you got the best you can for at least a season or two; upgrade after you know it’s for you and you know what features you need, and the ones you can live without.

Unless you’re a dentist. Then buy all that shit new, use it once, then sell it in gear swap for pennies on the dollar.