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  1. #1
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    Solution to a missing package, who's at fault?

    Ok TGR, I didn't want to post this as I was hoping for a happy resolution, but so far I am not really happy with the resolution. So I'd like to just know what TGR thinks. I don't think this person has bad intentions, but I have a bad taste in my mouth.

    TL;DR: Package is missing, but says delivered. We both put in due diligence to try and recover package / insurance money. Doesn't pan out. Seller goes silent on me and I'm out $135 with nothing.

    Story time:

    I bought a helmet and some accessories from the seller back in October. I sent PP, they sent tracking via USPS all was good. I check for the package the day it was supposed to arrive and it wasn't there. I checked the tracking and it turns out it got delivered a couple days early. First things first, I contact the seller. I ask them to double check the address and their tracking to make sure there's no discrepancy. None there.

    So I live in an apartment, in Seattle, with a locked mailroom. Sometimes packages get mis-delivered or someone picks up the wrong one. So I go and check all the halls of the apartment, I check the apartment across the street which also looks similar and I check the few buildings next to my apartment. No dice. I send an email to the building manager who sends it to the building email list and no dice. Package hasn't showed up. Now, I really just want to know what happened to the package. So I call USPS and put in a missing tracking report. They notified the carrier to look around, but said their GPS of the scan showed the corner where my building is. I've never had a missing package before in Seattle (several stolen packages back when I lived in SF).

    Ok at this point, I contact the seller again. We're both pretty frustrated. He puts in an insurance claim through USPS. Two weeks go by since the package was supposed to be delivered and we're still communicating. At this point I ask to agree to split the loss if the package doesn't show up. If this was $50, I'd forget about it, but it's $135. I even agree to cover a larger percentage of the loss. It sucks that I have nothing. It's possible that the package got stolen, mis-delivered, or who knows, but I'm out $135 with nothing to show for it.

    The seller beats around the bush on my request, stating that he will refund something, but wants to wait for the USPS result. Even offers up some pro deal discounts. I appreciate all this, but really I want the goods or the money. I let him know that I don't think it's his fault or my fault, just a crappy situation that occasionally happens when selling stuff over the interwebs. We can both take a smaller hit on it and call it a day.

    Now, 3 weeks after the delivery USPS denied the claim, but the seller says he's submitting an appeal. Now two months later, he tells me appeal is denied. Now he says that someone in my building must have stolen the package. I mean maybe...but why? So he offers up some other helmet and stuff, but I tell him I'd really just like some sort of partial refund. I tell him again that I don't think it's his fault or mine, but just that shit happens. I also say look - if a ~$60 refund is financially untenable for you then that's fine I'll eat the whole loss. But just let me know.

    He agrees to Venmo me $40 and give me his pro deal discount. I say that works and send him my Venmo. Note it's now been 2.5 months since the package was supposed to arrive. He never sends me the money. So now a couple weeks ago (4 months now...) I message him asking for an update. No response yet. So I'm a bit frustrated. I've bought from the seller before and had no issue, but what really frustrates me is not the amount, but the fact that he wasn't just straight up and own up as a seller that shit happens. Not only that, but he's just been dragging his feet for no apparent reason.

    In my opinion, if I sell someone a package and somehow it doesn't make it to them I will try and make it right by them. Regardless whether it's my fault or not. Shit happens in my book. If I sold a pair of skis for $500, it's a more complicated story but if I don't put a signature required on it, I'll pony up and split the loss if there's no one clear at fault. Over $135...not as complicated in my mind.

    Anyways...curious what the collective thinks? Based on my experience with this seller, I'll never buy from him again. He didn't make it right by me. I'm out $135 and I've got nothing to show for it.

  2. #2
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    www.apriliaforum.com

    "If the road You followed brought you to this,of what use was the road"?

    "I have no idea what I am talking about but would be happy to share my biased opinions as fact on the matter. "
    Ottime

  3. #3
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    Perhaps I'll be on the wrong side of history here but I don't think the seller is obligated to do anything for you. You paid. He shipped. I think that's pretty much the end of his responsibilities as part of this transaction. It's not like he used some 3rd rate courier service or put in the wrong address. He acted in good faith and the package got lost after delivery. I mean, it'd be nice of the seller to kick you down some $$ cuz it sucks to see you get the short end of the stick but none of the circumstances you described would compel him to do so, imo.
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  4. #4
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    ^^Haha

  5. #5
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    Ski-off.

  6. #6
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    You posted this asking for internet opinions. So here's mine...

    You're asking too much. $10, $50, $100, $500 shouldn't matter. You're SOL dude. Risk vs reward of buying online from a private party and having packages delivered, especially in a big city. The seller sounds like he went above and beyond to help you out, but at the end of the day he should owe you nothing.

    Why would he? Sounds like he did everything right and now due to where you live he has to be out gear and some money? Sometimes life isn't fair and you lose, doesn't mean everyone involved has to lose.

  7. #7
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    One more thing, if you were so worried about the $135 then you should have asked him to require a signature and paid the extra for shipping. I have a feeling that wasn't the case. If it was, and the seller didnt do it, then you would have a legitimate beef.

    You sound like a PITA. On the do not sell to list.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soups View Post
    You posted this asking for internet opinions. So here's mine...

    You're asking too much. You're SOL dude. Risk vs reward of buying online from a private party and having packages delivered, especially in a big city. The seller sounds like he went above and beyond to help you out, but at the end of the day he should owe you nothing.

    Why would he? Sounds like he did everything right and now due to where you live he has to be out gear and some money? Sometimes life isn't fair and you lose, doesn't mean everyone involved has to lose.
    That's fair and why I asked TGR. I guess I just feel like if I was in the flip situation I would try and make right to buyer.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soups View Post
    You posted this asking for internet opinions. So here's mine...

    You're asking too much. $10, $50, $100, $500 shouldn't matter. You're SOL dude. Risk vs reward of buying online from a private party and having packages delivered, especially in a big city. The seller sounds like he went above and beyond to help you out, but at the end of the day he should owe you nothing.

    Why would he? Sounds like he did everything right and now due to where you live he has to be out gear and some money? Sometimes life isn't fair and you lose, doesn't mean everyone involved has to lose.
    This.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  10. #10
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    He did try and make it right by doing a prodeal thing and sounds like you hounded him over money.

  11. #11
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    He should not have agreed to pay you $40 and then default. Other than that, from what I can see he did everything he was supposed to do and owes you nothing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by big kook View Post
    He should not have agreed to pay you $40 <snip> Other than that, from what I can see he did everything he was supposed to do and owes you nothing.
    Yep, I deal with this all the time at work. Delivery is the moment ownership of the goods changes, Seller is not responsible for what happens in your mailroom. If the package disappears during transit, the Seller has to file a claim and try to get compensation from carrier. The moment package is delivered (even if Buyer isn't home, signature doesn't matter), it becomes the Buyer's personal property and loss or theft is 100% on the Buyer (who must submit police report and claim with homeowner/renter's insurance).

    USPS will NEVER pay a loss claim if tracking shows delivered, don't even bother. Half the time they won't even pay even if it doesn't show delivered, and they'll say, "tracking shows it got close, the carrier just forgot to scan it when it was delivered." No recourse, dunzo.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    Yep, I deal with this all the time at work. Delivery is the moment ownership of the goods changes, Seller is not responsible for what happens in your mailroom. If the package disappears during transit, the Seller has to file a claim and try to get compensation from carrier. The moment package is delivered (even if Buyer isn't home, signature doesn't matter), it becomes the Buyer's personal property and loss or theft is 100% on the Buyer (who must submit police report and claim with homeowner/renter's insurance).

    USPS will NEVER pay a loss claim if tracking shows delivered, don't even bother. Half the time they won't even pay even if it doesn't show delivered, and they'll say, "tracking shows it got close, the carrier just forgot to scan it when it was delivered." No recourse, dunzo.
    I guess I was wrong to hound him so hard for some refund. Apologies to the seller if you're reading this. I know that about USPS et. al. and pretty much everything you said. Same goes for eBay with a refund if the package is marked as delivered.

    I don't think the seller was wrong, but perhaps I was hoping for a bit more camaraderie on the forums when something goes wrong in a sale. I certainly would have immediately offered some sort of partial refund, but I guess that's a personal decision on my part and not something I should expect in return.

  14. #14
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    Thats cool and good on you for immediately thinking about offering a partial refund if the tables were turned. Not everyone may be in a situation to do that, nor should it be expected.

    Just remember call out threads are serious bizness! And you never know which way they'll go...powder skirts (and the recent one that I can't think of the details)

  15. #15
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    If definitely sucks and we all feel your pain, but the seller is selling goods, not an insurance policy for what happens after delivery. Suppose sellers could offer "insurance" in return for buyers paying an extra $10 or $20, but no one would do it and think of how messy it would become.

  16. #16
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    I agree with all above. Usps sucks as of late. I had a recent sale go ary and luckily package came back to me and I just resent it and ate the shipping the first go round.

    Insurance seems like a reasonable way to move forward on future sales. Just for the piece of mind if your apartment mailroom has issues.


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  17. #17
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    DeJoy made sure to destroy the USPS so Republicans can cum their pants. Anyway, should have done sig required. IDK, sucks. Maybe it will show up one day if porch pirates didn't take it.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  18. #18
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    It really depends so much on the specifics, and this is why it's important to discuss things like signature on delivery, how money is sent (e.g. standard PayPal vs. friends and family or other payment methods) ahead of time.

    Since that probably didn't happen, I'd say the responsibility is shared. You can't prove that you didn't simply take the package and claim it was stolen, but neither can the seller prove they didn't ship you an improperly packaged 2x4 that someone mistook as garbage. (Okay, that's a stretch, but the point is, there are any number of things that could have gone wrong in shipping that would ultimately be the seller's responsibility, even if the package was scanned as "delivered".) Since USPS did at least confirm the delivery location, in this case, shipping is probably most important. Did you agree to the lowest cost, no signature shipping option, or did the seller choose it? (Whether or not USPS is collecting signatures in your area is beside the point. If the seller paid for the service and USPS didn't take a signature, that's up to the seller to work out with USPS.)

    What complicates matters is that it sounds like you used Venmo or similar for payment, which means you don't really have any recourse either way. If you had used something like a standard PayPal transaction and didn't explicitly agree to no signature on delivery to save money, you'd be within your rights to open a dispute. As with any online order, unless you were given a choice, the seller's responsibility is to get the package inside your door, not just to it. Again, though, if you didn't use a payment method that offers a dispute resolution process (which does indeed cost a little more), there's really nothing you can do aside from making some noise online.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soups View Post
    You sound like a PITA. On the do not sell to list.
    And, based purely on this comment, I'd say you sound like an irresponsible seller who likes to blame the buyer for things that are ultimately under your control. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  19. #19
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    Honestly, I really have no idea what happened. I haven't had any other package issues at this place and I've been here for a year. In fact I had some UPS packages come to the mailroom on the same day no issues.

    Perhaps USPS had a new carrier that day and didn't know to put it in the mailroom and dropped them outside? Maybe they fell off during a delivery. I did speak to others in the building and there were two other USPS packages on the same day that didn't make it to them either. Just surprising if it were stolen that it was only USPS packages that didn't arrive...

  20. #20
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    HOW CAN I BE COMPENSATED?

    Sorry, I applaud your approach here jongiest, and feel your pain about the cash lost. I just want to see if that line achieves TRG meme status. Too soon? I waited until the collective checked in on your inquiry.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unpiste View Post
    It really depends so much on the specifics, and this is why it's important to discuss things like signature on delivery, how money is sent (e.g. standard PayPal vs. friends and family or other payment methods) ahead of time.

    Since that probably didn't happen, I'd say the responsibility is shared. You can't prove that you didn't simply take the package and claim it was stolen, but neither can the seller prove they didn't ship you an improperly packaged 2x4 that someone mistook as garbage. (Okay, that's a stretch, but the point is, there are any number of things that could have gone wrong in shipping that would ultimately be the seller's responsibility, even if the package was scanned as "delivered".) Since USPS did at least confirm the delivery location, in this case, shipping is probably most important. Did you agree to the lowest cost, no signature shipping option, or did the seller choose it? (Whether or not USPS is collecting signatures in your area is beside the point. If the seller paid for the service and USPS didn't take a signature, that's up to the seller to work out with USPS.)

    What complicates matters is that it sounds like you used Venmo or similar for payment, which means you don't really have any recourse either way. If you had used something like a standard PayPal transaction and didn't explicitly agree to no signature on delivery to save money, you'd be within your rights to open a dispute. As with any online order, unless you were given a choice, the seller's responsibility is to get the package inside your door, not just to it. Again, though, if you didn't use a payment method that offers a dispute resolution process (which does indeed cost a little more), there's really nothing you can do aside from making some noise online.




    And, based purely on this comment, I'd say you sound like an irresponsible seller who likes to blame the buyer for things that are ultimately under your control. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    TLDR and dont give a shit. Dont buy from me.

  22. #22
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    Last year I bought a really nice Stio piece at a great price on gearswap and got a USPS tracking number. Number eventually confirmed that it had arrived at my post office and had been delivered over the counter (i have a rural PO Box). But it wasn't delivered to me. Very frustrating, but the seller never heard from me, as I've no doubt it was my Post Office's screw up. I live in the mountains amongst mostly second homes, and the number of people up here from the Bay Area having their mail delivered to General Delivery is off the charts. Poor postal workers are massively overworked and constantly harrassed. No doubt they gave it to the wrong person, who unfortunately didn't return it. Sucks, but it's not the seller's problem.

  23. #23
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    To me it's the seller's responsibility to make a good delivery. In this case there was a lag btwn when the package was delivered and the buyer attempted to secure the package. The "non-delivery" of 3 USPS packages around the same time indicates that a theft occurred in the building while the package(s) waited for a couple days for pickup.

    If any of those 3 packages were delivered in error to wrong building/wrong apartment it's likely at least 1 would have turned up. It seems like the seller did his part and shouldn't bear responsibility in this case. It's unfortunate that package thefts have been rampant for years and the buyer experienced same in SF. That should have prompted awareness that package theft at least should be considered prior to shipment and steps made to reduce or eliminate that possibility.

    Obviously no discussion occurred before shipping btwn buyer and seller about how loss or damage was going to be resolved. We take all this for granted since we're so used to buying online and shipping, but commercial sellers takes losses and they include that in cost of goods to offset that. Private parties and especially places where you get the "mag" price don't. The seller should not have told you he was going to rebate $40 and then gone silent, other than that he seems to have done what he was supposed to.

  24. #24
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    As per the title of this thread “who’s at fault?” the answer is obvious and, at this point resounds like an echo in this tube.

    Nobody is at fault. You paid. He shipped. 99% of the time all the thousands of hands of humanity needed to seal the deal between points A and B work flawlessly. But that leaves 1%. You are the 1%.

    Because nobody’s at fault, nobody “owes” anyone anything. Any offer or effort on the part of the seller is above and beyond the bare minimum required.

    Truth is the convenience of PP and Venmo have created more risk for buyers. No envelopes of cash or bacon passing your sick gear like ships in the night. Risk mitigation requires insurance protection or similar. That is 100% on the buyer. So if you buy, don’t get insurance, and shit goes south (assuming it was supposed to go north) you’ll find fault in the mirror.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    HOW CAN I BE COMPENSATED?
    This is what I should have titled the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner View Post
    To me it's the seller's responsibility to make a good delivery. In this case there was a lag btwn when the package was delivered and the buyer attempted to secure the package. The "non-delivery" of 3 USPS packages around the same time indicates that a theft occurred in the building while the package(s) waited for a couple days for pickup.

    If any of those 3 packages were delivered in error to wrong building/wrong apartment it's likely at least 1 would have turned up. It seems like the seller did his part and shouldn't bear responsibility in this case. It's unfortunate that package thefts have been rampant for years and the buyer experienced same in SF. That should have prompted awareness that package theft at least should be considered prior to shipment and steps made to reduce or eliminate that possibility.

    Obviously no discussion occurred before shipping btwn buyer and seller about how loss or damage was going to be resolved. We take all this for granted since we're so used to buying online and shipping, but commercial sellers takes losses and they include that in cost of goods to offset that. Private parties and especially places where you get the "mag" price don't. The seller should not have told you he was going to rebate $40 and then gone silent, other than that he seems to have done what he was supposed to.
    Or perhaps that the USPS carrier put the packages in the wrong place (either wrong building, outside which resulted in theft, or ???). I have strong doubts that the 3 missing packages (which were all delivered at the same time per tracking #s) happened to be the only packages taken from the mailroom when there were many other packages in there at the same time.

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