Solution to a missing package, who's at fault?

**liv2ski** · 02-28-2021, 06:36 PM

If I lived in an apartment with a central post room, I would of had it delivered to a secure location elsewhere. Go to a UPS store, rent a box and get deliveries there. Sure it costs a few bucks but you get your stuff.

**Tech Tonics** · 02-28-2021, 06:43 PM

Seller went beyond what was expected of them. You should retitle the thread “rad fkn maggot offers some cash and prodeal cuz my mail got stolen.”

Or seller could start a thread “jongiest is harassing me over his shit getting swiped”

**Hopeless Sinner** · 02-28-2021, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by thejongiest

This is what I should have titled the thread.

Or perhaps that the USPS carrier put the packages in the wrong place (either wrong building, outside which resulted in theft, or ???). I have strong doubts that the 3 missing packages (which were all delivered at the same time per tracking #s) happened to be the only packages taken from the mailroom when there were many other packages in there at the same time.

It's all speculation as to what happened. Perhaps video surveillance of the mailroom is warranted.

**rideit** · 02-28-2021, 07:12 PM

eBay puts the burden on the seller, if you didn’t pay for insurance/signature confirmation, seller eats it, full stop. Occasionally there are anomalies such as USPS delivering to the right PO, but it not making it to the right box/address, which is different, but it’s up to the seller to battle that out. The buyer gets a refund.
Not opining on your case in any way, just describing what I know. I have sold over $100,000 of stuff on EBay, and this is how it has gone down. But only twice in 20 years, now that I think about it.

**MakersTeleMark** · 02-28-2021, 07:16 PM

In the past 2 months I've had 2 packages not make it to me and 1 package not make it to who I sent it to. All completely lost in the ether. USPS is truly fucked.

**SirVicSmasher** · 02-28-2021, 07:58 PM

Seattle has a huge problem with package theft.

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**jacob_dbu** · 02-28-2021, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by SirVicSmasher

Seattle has a huge problem with package theft.

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My experience, in my particular location and my particular building, is that it is uncommon. But we have a locked mailroom that USPS, UPS, and FedEx have keys to.

I’ve also experienced rampant package theft in SF in a building without an indoor locked area. It was horrible. I actually paid for a service there to hold packages for this reason.

**1000-oaks** · 02-28-2021, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by rideit

eBay puts the burden on the seller, if you didn’t pay for insurance/signature confirmation, seller eats it, full stop.

Incorrect, at work we ship hundreds of packages a day, half are eBay. If the tracking shows package delivered, INR (Item Not Received) cases are immediately closed in the Seller's favor. If the tracking shows the package was returned to sender, package was lost or destroyed, or package hasn't been delivered within a set time (can't remember if it's 45 or 60 days), case is closed in Buyer's favor and a full refund is issued. PayPal only requires signature if item value is more than $750 USD, threshold value is different in other currencies/countries.

Yep, I pay for a private mailbox to ensure someone receives packages in-person and holds them for me. Had a $3,200 DSLR left on my porch once with no signature required. Fortunately no one grabbed it, but not risking that again, not even for $100 packages.

**SkiLyft** · 02-28-2021, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by SirVicSmasher

Seattle has a huge problem with pretty much EVERYTHING

FIFY

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**mufasa5446** · 03-01-2021, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by big kook

He should not have agreed to pay you $40 and then default. Other than that, from what I can see he did everything he was supposed to do and owes you nothing.

Agreed

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**rideit** · 03-01-2021, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by 1000-oaks

Incorrect, at work we ship hundreds of packages a day, half are eBay. If the tracking shows package delivered, INR (Item Not Received) cases are immediately closed in the Seller's favor. If the tracking shows the package was returned to sender, package was lost or destroyed, or package hasn't been delivered within a set time (can't remember if it's 45 or 60 days), case is closed in Buyer's favor and a full refund is issued. PayPal only requires signature if item value is more than $750 USD, threshold value is different in other currencies/countries.

Yep, I pay for a private mailbox to ensure someone receives packages in-person and holds them for me. Had a $3,200 DSLR left on my porch once with no signature required. Fortunately no one grabbed it, but not risking that again, not even for $100 packages.

This has not been my experience, but I haven’t had a contested case in years.

**1000-oaks** · 03-01-2021, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by rideit

This has not been my experience, but I haven’t had a contested case in years.

You're absolute correct about eBay siding with buyers for 99% of things. But not when it comes to delivered goods, that's the one thing eBay is good about. Which is a must really, because if shady buyers discovered they can get goods AND a full refund just by claiming they didn't receive something, it would like everyone winning the lotto. eBay loses their commission whenever a buyer is refunded, so they're not going to allow that to happen.

Originally Posted by Unpiste

It really depends so much on the specifics, and this is why it's important to discuss things like signature on delivery, how money is sent (e.g. standard PayPal vs. friends and family or other payment methods) ahead of time.

Definitely, signature service costs more money, and if the buyer wants it, he/she had better volunteer to pay the additional cost.

Originally Posted by Unpiste

neither can the seller prove they didn't ship you an improperly packaged 2x4 that someone mistook as garbage.

Yes you're new here, but how many times have you heard about forum community members shipping a brick or a 2x4 to anther member instead of goods? Doesn't happen here. Torches, pitchforks, and a knock at the door would ensue.

Originally Posted by Unpiste

the seller's responsibility is to get the package inside your door, not just to it.

Lol, sure...

**AK47bp** · 03-01-2021, 12:29 AM

Well at least we know who NOT to sell to.

Your mailroom lost your package and you want the seller to reimburse you?

Christ almighty

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**otto parts** · 03-01-2021, 12:34 AM

He owes you $40 if that’s what he promised. And you should move to a small town, somewhere where the rule of law still exists. You will not survive here. You are not a wolf, and this is a land of wolves now.

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**jacob_dbu** · 03-01-2021, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by AK47bp

Well at least we know who NOT to sell to.

Your mailroom lost your package and you want the seller to reimburse you?

Christ almighty

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And you know who to buy from. Got a problem? I’ll make it right.

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**grinch** · 03-01-2021, 02:00 AM

Sellers risk. If he wants no risk he should include insurance and a signature in the price. For a $135 item thats only cost $3 or4. The $1 extra for a signature wouldve solved this. I don't mind paying the extra $3 so we can both have piece of mind.
You included your address in the paypal payment? Youre not covered otherwise.
It'd be gracious if you both split it.
Otherwise file a pp claim

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**rangerjake** · 03-01-2021, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by grinch

Sellers risk. If he wants no risk he should include insurance and a signature in the price. For a $135 item thats only cost $3 or4. The $1 extra for a signature wouldve solved this. I don't mind paying the extra $3 so we can both have piece of mind.
You included your address in the paypal payment? Youre not covered otherwise.
It'd be gracious if you both split it.
Otherwise file a pp claim

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I think this is backwards. Seller doesn’t know what situation he/she is selling into. For some (like this case) a signature would be a good bit of protection. For other buyers a signature would be a monumental PITA. As such, the price of the product is just that. The price of the product “shipped” is just that. If it says no more, you get no more. If the buyer wants/needs the security of signature and insurance they can ask, they can pay.

What’s more is this is exactly how pretty much every GS transaction works. Creating a standard that all GS sales are to have included in the price signature confirmation and/or insurance ensures hundreds more of these litigious threads about who did or didn’t do what.

If seller said he’d send $40 and reneged that’s weak but I wasn’t party to the tone, content, frequency of buyers interactions. Maybe he just grew tired of it all and lost his generous spirit. Sounds like the seller already went to great lengths to try and assist in finding this pkg.

There’s only one lesson from this: as a buyer if you want things beyond bargain basement ground shipping you request and cover those costs: expedited shipping, insurance, signature, whatever else there is. Cut and dry.

**adrenalated** · 03-01-2021, 10:09 AM

Paying extra for signature service in the covid era is a waste of money. I've had a LOT of packages shipped to me over the past year, many of them with signature required, including alcohol (the driver is supposed to check ID). Of those signature required packages, exactly zero times have I actually been asked to sign for it. The driver just leaves it, forges the signature, and goes on with their day. They know that as long as there is something in the file their ass is covered and they don't give a shit beyond that.

USPS quality seems to vary widely based on location and local offices and in most places it's bad. I can say that my office is notorious for leaving a package and not marking it as delivered, or marking it as delivered and then delivering it a few days later, or marking it as delivered then keeping it at the office, or marking it as delivered when it's actually lost. Again, they know that as long as it says delivered in the file, their ass is covered.

I don't pay for a secure mailbox but I do generally insist on UPS or FedEx shipping (while still bad, they're generally more reliable), I have a locked package dropbox on my porch, and larger items I generally redirect to UPS stores or FedEx office facilities for pickup.

Anyway, I'm on the seller owes OP nothing side of this dispute.

**::: :::** · 03-01-2021, 10:23 AM

Amazon drivers have been taking pics of delivered packages from what I’ve seen. I seen local construction materials delivery services do it too. Not fedex or ups tho

**IceCoastBBPatrol** · 03-01-2021, 10:27 AM

I insure EVERYTHING I ship. Sold some boots on ebay, package became lost at some point, I didn't insure it....I gave back the money to the buyer immediately. Now I insure everything. And I view every transaction like a relationship, you need tons of communication. Do you live in a city, apartment, a brothel, a prison? Do you want to pick it up from Fedex/USPS. Honestly, the best way to deal with it.

It's a pain for both parties involved. I just try to ship to a family member that works from home, in the suburbs, where they never get things stolen.

**Wes Mantooth** · 03-01-2021, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by grinch

Sellers risk. If he wants no risk he should include insurance and a signature in the price. For a $135 item thats only cost $3 or4. The $1 extra for a signature wouldve solved this. I don't mind paying the extra $3 so we can both have piece of mind.
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Problem is USPS insurance doesn't do shit if the package is marked as Delivered. I always insure packages for the full value since USPS is an absolute dumpster fire these days but around here they'll mark it as Delivered when it never has been. A driver on our route got caught just scanning all packages in the truck before even going on his route and he was never able to finish his route because USPS is understaffed and temporarily got rid of overtime pay, so you end up with one dude trying to do two routes in one with no incentive to hustle

As a seller I'll always ship your package with some kind of insurance and a tracking number and I'm happy to help file a claim if it gets lost, but the responsibility kinda ends there. Everything else is just above and beyond which does happen on TGR and makes this place awesome (I recently had a package get lost as a recipient and the seller on here gave me a full refund, but that was his suggestion and insistence, not mine). Because of that I would help out a fellow mag in the future if the roles were reversed, but I wouldnt feel it was my duty to do so. TGR is a very unique microcosm of trustworthy people hooking eachother up which is the only reason this conversation is happening right now. If you want the seller to be held accountable buy from a major retailer or a place where sellers are covered - honestly if you live in a place where people steal shit it's not the worst idea. It was definitely something I took into account when I lived on a street in Boston with a rampant package theft problem

I've been buying and selling stuff on here for almost 13 years and only had things get lost maybe twice, but I am curious to see if there's a spike in these incidents with USPS due to covid since I have definitely seen a massive decline in reliability and speed

**johnnyg82** · 03-01-2021, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

It's all speculation as to what happened. Perhaps video surveillance of the mailroom is warranted.

Does the secure mailroom have video surveillance? I would have gone there first. Apart from a keyhole, is there any other sort of access control?

Edit to add: I believe there is no fault nor blame here between buyer and seller, both did their part. Seller did try go beyond with other deals/discounts.

Kinda reminds my of that Fischer warranty thread on that other ski site.

**AK47bp** · 03-01-2021, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

It's all speculation as to what happened. Perhaps video surveillance of the mailroom is warranted.

Check the tapes, start an investigation, maybe the local CSI crew will find semen. Then what?

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**Eluder** · 03-01-2021, 11:42 AM

Shipping insurance like most insurance is a scam.

**gregorys** · 03-01-2021, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by rideit

eBay puts the burden on the seller, if you didn’t pay for insurance/signature confirmation, seller eats it, full stop. Occasionally there are anomalies such as USPS delivering to the right PO, but it not making it to the right box/address, which is different, but it’s up to the seller to battle that out. The buyer gets a refund.
Not opining on your case in any way, just describing what I know. I have sold over $100,000 of stuff on EBay, and this is how it has gone down. But only twice in 20 years, now that I think about it.

Everyone's going to have an opinion - but this is the truth. ^^^
And frankly the person that paid for insurance (and should) is the seller. And they're the ONLY entity that can make a claim. The buyer can't do jack to file or persue a claim.

So, while the seller, in a purely theoretical discussion, has no duty (I disagree, but we'll just stipulate they don't.) they are the only one that can cure the problem. The buyer can't persue the USPS, or do anything to solve it. If the seller fumbles that, and presents a terrible case, and it's denied - then the buyer can only stand by helplessly. So, IMO, the shipper/seller has *more* responsibility than the buyer/reciever.

When I ship stuff, I decide - what happens if "something happens." Do I want to insure it, because if "something happens" I'm going to be on the hook. And unlike many here, I will consider myself "on the hook" and make it right, to the best of my ability.

So, have I shipped stuff without insurance etc? Sure. But if it goes missing, I intend to eat the cost.
This is a slightly more complicated situation - but yeah, I think I'd eat the cost - and certainly, splitting the loss equally seems utterly fair.