Is it time to revisit the ski industry living wage?

[Bunion 2020]

RE:livable wages.

15 bucks an hour will not get you a rental in most ski towns and will not get you a rental in the small city I live in.

[char_]

On their own? What about with a roommate? Maybe a spouse? News flash, rent or own, the cost is basically the same, with renting often being more expensive. Not every job is a career ultimately.

Somewhere along the line the definition of affordable housing and livable wage changed to where one should be able to have any job pay for everything with zero hardship or roommates, and in a ski town, don't forget the 2x a year trip to Moab and a 5K mountain bike, because everyone deserves it.

This is a little over dramatic don’t you think? $15/hr is $31,200 per year of full time work, which isn’t exactly living large.

I’d also add that I’ll be happy to debate the definition of a “living wage” if we can agree that most low paying jobs in the US do not provide a living wage by basically any definition and are much closer to subsistence wages.

[TeleTahoe]

McDonald’s in Truckee starting pay is 17 an hour.
3 dollars more then what lift ops start at.
Some places pay lift maintenance double minimum wage in California, if you have your own tools.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Buster Highmen]

[hatchgreenchile]

I agree that many in that world are underpaid, but join the club. So are educators, social workers, child care providers, nurses, EMTs and countless others working in far more critical fields.

Based on volunteer experiences with youth emergency services and rehabilitation programs in 2 states, I do I find pieces around "ski town homelessness", "housing crisis" and "inequality" quite odd. Some reality meters are broken!

[Bunion 2020]

I agree that many in that world are underpaid, but join the club. So are educators, social workers, child care providers, nurses, EMTs and countless others working in far more critical fields.

Based on volunteer experiences with youth emergency services and rehabilitation programs in 2 states, I do I find pieces around "ski town homelessness", "housing crisis" and "inequality" quite odd. Some reality meters are broken!

You might check your meter as well.

And those "educators, social workers, child care providers, nurses, EMTs"??? Toss out Nurses, an RN starts at around 28 and hour last I heard. But hell yeah, they all deserve a living wage however you define it.

As for ski areas, the original question was around the idea that many ski areas are making big bucks (debatable) so they should pay their workers more.

I’d also add that I’ll be happy to debate the definition of a “living wage” if we can agree that most low paying jobs in the US do not provide a living wage by basically any definition and are much closer to subsistence wages.

Boom!

[XXX-er]

Small/real town with a ski hill the rich are getting richer the poor are getting poorer, housing is unaffordable, its a LL market, there are no workers to do the entry level jobs

right now ski hill is offering tickets on FB for anyone who will do snow shoveling,

my sense is that people are going away to work in the camps

[old goat]

I gotta laugh at people who think that ski industry workers shouldn't gripe about low pay because they get to live in a ski town. Without those workers you don't get to ski, and with starvation wages the rule in ski towns pretty soon you won't be able to buy groceries or get mail (big problem in Truckee) or do a lot of other stuff--there are shit load of unfilled jobs in ski towns and it's going to keep getting worse. And who do you think bangs nails in the summer--the same people who haul your broken carcass down the hill in the winter. And a lot of the ski industry folks aren't living in a ski town--they're living in places like Reno, with a 45 minute each way commute--in good weather on the weekdays.

I bet a lot of the people complaining that paying ski workers more because skiing will cost more are the same people who want the price of passes to go up so the slopes are less crowded.

[Bunion 2020]

I gotta laugh at people who think that ski industry workers shouldn't gripe about low pay because they get to live in a ski town.

I don't think that is the view so much as, "Meh, someone new will load lifts and live the dream for a winter. Why pay more when there is millions of dewy eyed youngsters wanting to live the dream of TJ & Dex and then go on their merry way? Rinse and repeat.

Except Aspen Extreme was 25 years ago & not sure those millions exist anymore.

[fastfred]

there are millions of people with the twinkle in their eye and the fantasy in the head
churn and burn the freshman class
its endless and yeah its a way to get your foot in the door dumb job employee housing if you like it and want to make it work you stick around if not you go back home and someone else takes your place

if you want to live in a ski town and want to have that perfect life you have to work for it and sacrifice a shit ton to make it happen

it aint' easy and it ain't free it shouldn't be people need to get over that fact they want it to be easy and cheap fuck that

[fastfred]

Many years ago I was sitting at the bar getting shitty having a good ole time, walked out my door, down the street and to the bar to drink and eat. A young bright eyed girl stopped in to drop off her application for a job. The bartender starts chatting her up, you could tell she was coming unhinged from her mannerisms, and the stress of driving a car full of belongs around town looking for where she belonged.

She finally let it all go and started balling her eyes out, quickly becoming embarrassed that she was in a bar, in the dead of off-season, completely lost. The bartender told her to sit down and take a load off. He poured her a tall glass of water, told her some food was on the way, and we both sat there letter her voice her frustrations and deepest fears. The poor young woman thought she could just show up, get a job, a place to live, and the dream would unfold in front of her. Who knows if she made it. Kids like her are a dime a dozen.

[old goat]

Before the Truckee Roundhouse shutdown for the pandemic I helped a couple of women--not young, not ski workers--outfit their vehicles to live in, and not to live the van life, just to survive.

In the past the lift ops at Squalpine have been South Americans for the most part. This year they are very young, very American, and I'm guessing a lot of them live with their parents in Truckee. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are doing on line college. Should be interesting next winter if no J1's and the college students are back in class.

As far as the unending supply of would be ski bums--they may tough it out as a liftie for a season but they don't qualify as mechanics (you know what happens when a lift goes down and you have to wait for the guy on the snowmobile to show up to start it), office staff, etc etc etc.
A lot of interesting careers in ski towns--guy I know is a head golf pro in the summer, bartender in the winter.

[powdork]

it aint' easy and it ain't free it shouldn't be people need to get over that fact they want it to be easy and cheap fuck that

noone is saying it should be easy or it should be free. We're saying corporations shouldn't be able to exploit workers (and in turn the general public that end up picking up the slack in terms of higher taxes, less diverse communities, etc) just because the workers will still show up. The reason there are protections for employees is because the corporations always have the upper hand otherwise.

[XXX-er]

Before the Truckee Roundhouse shutdown for the pandemic I helped a couple of women--not young, not ski workers--outfit their vehicles to live in, and not to live the van life, just to survive.

In the past the lift ops at Squalpine have been South Americans for the most part. This year they are very young, very American, and I'm guessing a lot of them live with their parents in Truckee. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are doing on line college. Should be interesting next winter if no J1's and the college students are back in class.

As far as the unending supply of would be ski bums--they may tough it out as a liftie for a season but they don't qualify as mechanics (you know what happens when a lift goes down and you have to wait for the guy on the snowmobile to show up to start it), office staff, etc etc etc.
A lot of interesting careers in ski towns--guy I know is a head golf pro in the summer, bartender in the winter.

you and I are just the amenity migrants

[DougW]

While income inequality is less in Europe, wealth inequality is greater. (Source, Piketty). One of the reasons being the aforementioned difference in home ownership, which is heavily subsidized in the US, but only for people with enough income to afford it--welfare for the well off.

Worth remembering that the top marginal income tax rate in the US was 91 or 92% from '44--'63, one of the most prosperous periods in US history. And it wasn't just the top earners who paid more. https://www.tax-brackets.org/federaltaxtable/1963

Any amount of digging would show that comparing todays marginal tax rates to the golden age of tax avoidance would show the AOC doesn't have a clue.

[Bunion 2020]

noone is saying it should be easy or it should be free. We're saying corporations shouldn't be able to exploit workers (and in turn the general public that end up picking up the slack in terms of higher taxes, less diverse communities, etc) just because the workers will still show up. The reason there are protections for employees is because the corporations always have the upper hand otherwise.

YES!

When I was a lift op in 1984 in Utah the Min. wage was 2.75 an hour. I was paid 6.00 an hour, lived with 3 other roomies and ate a lot of Hamburger Helper.

That same 6.00 an hour is now worth, wait for it................ just a little north of 15 an hour. None of that reflects the much higher COL in ski towns or the lack of housing, affordable or otherwise.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inf.../1984?amount=6

[kevin267]

One of my first winters I told a ski school kid I was working three jobs (I think it was ski instructing, parking lot attendant and line cook at that point), and they said "wow you must be very wealthy"

[nickel]

What happens when the modern drive for safety means ski corps stop letting employees like lifties actually ski? It's already happening and the effects on employee morale and retention have not been positive.

[Percy Rideout]

What happens when the modern drive for safety means ski corps stop letting employees like lifties actually ski? It's already happening and the effects on employee morale and retention have not been positive.

The old shoot yourself in the foot approach? Ski corporations are money grubbing corporatists, not dumbasses.

[Bunion 2020]

The old shoot yourself in the foot approach? Ski corporations are money grubbing corporatists, not dumbasses.

Lot of ski areas no longer allow skiing on the clock except for Patrol and Snowsports, one reason why the J1 visas are so attractive for employers, the employees don't come to ski, they are there to work.

Last place I worked, the lift ops only ski to and from their lifts on designated routes, no skiing breaks or lunch skiing, the lift supervisors did get to ski. This is one of the really cool not for profit areas.

The place before that allowed lift ops to ski on breaks but only if they clocked out.

The place before that the lifties got lots of skiing, LOTS. Then the members began complaining and now, no skiing, period, I am not sure if they even get to ski to their lifts. There were even some members that bitched that the patrol was skiing too much, WTF?

Place before that, lift ops got to ski when I started working there, quite a few became Patrollers eventually, at least they could ski well. About 8 years later and many workers comp claims and the lifties were relegated to designated routes and no skiing on the clock.

And yes, morale suffered.

So, exploit the fuzzy foreigners or you better pay the locals a decent wage.

[Meadow Skipper]

The place before that allowed lift ops to ski on breaks but only if they clocked out.

That’s how it was at the ski area where I worked. This one liftie wrapped herself around a tree backwards while riding down from the top instead of taking the lift down. We (patrol) backboarded her because of severe POP (pain on palpation) on one of the lumbar discs. Ambulance took her down, and it was all on her dime because of the “clock out” policy. That sucked. Family owned town hill.

There were even some members that bitched that the patrol was skiing too much…

Lololol. Entitled assholes. Probably also complained that patrol wasn’t doing enough to slow ‘reckless people’ down because they weren’t out on the hill.

[Core Shot]

McDonald’s in Truckee starting pay is 17 an hour.
3 dollars more then what lift ops start at.
Some places pay lift maintenance double minimum wage in California, if you have your own tools.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

$20 minimum next April
Do lifties get this same benefit?

2,000 Pizza Hut delivery jobs axed already
https://www.businessinsider.com/cali...ge-law-2023-12

I guess they can be door dash drivers now

Found another weird article
https://www.businessinsider.com/pane...ncrease-2023-9
Panera is exempt since they bake bread. wtf??
And Pizza Hut could easily have started baking bread. That oven is going all day and night. I guess they see it is cost savings with or without minimum wage increase.

Chipotle and others are looking to price increases. Hmmm why would they do such a thing?

[Core Shot]

Above post about clocking out for lifties to free ski I get it. Work comp coverage for freeriding. But damn. The end of an era.
And yep. More and more it’s a j1 visa job.
Progress. Yayyy.

[lowsparkco]

Yeah, bummer that story by Meadow Skipper of the liftie getting hurt, but I would imagine Risk Analysts are more concerned if a liftie in uniform hits and injures or kills a paying customer. I think some ski areas will back off of having the uniform pants embroidered so that employees can just put on a personal jacket and be “out of uniform.”

Outdoor industry employees will always struggle with there being others willing to fill your position at the same or lower wages. There’s an entire pool of just a longer term form of tourist. “I worked out west one winter…” East coast for I flunked out of college fall semester and waited 6 months before enrolling in community college.

[MakersTeleMark]

Outdoor industry employees will always struggle with there being others willing to fill your position at the same or lower wages. There’s an entire pool of just a longer term form of tourist. “I worked out west one winter…” East coast for I flunked out of college fall semester and waited 6 months before enrolling in community college.

Housing is actually shrinking that available endless pool dramatically, especially if any company wants someone who actually might have a clue or a care about what they are doing after a fuck off year.