Is it time to revisit the ski industry living wage?

[GoldMember]

My number came straight from the Whitehouse.gov page, sourced to NOAA.

Argue all you want, people are going to ski in 50 years, saying otherwise is just grandstanding. The question is at what cost and how many will be able to afford it.

I looked at the NOAA site. You're right, it's 1 degree. Where you failed is that it's C not F. You didn't distinguish that point. The other fail is that it's risen about 1.5C since 1910.

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...al-temperature



You could have argued that temps have actually fallen substantially over the past 50 million years. Another link to the NOAA data. In reality, by Earth's long historical standards, we're in a very cool climate currently. However, I don't think working toward the mean is beneficial to skiing.

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...rths-ever-been

[AdironRider]

Yeah guys, the average temp in Jackson last month was fucking 21 degrees, 24 in Breck, 27 in Mammoth, 19 at Killington.

But lets all keep on keepin on about there will be no skiing in 50 years when even the worst case scenario of climate change still leaves it below fucking freezing in every area of the country that supports a ski area already.

Keep arguing semantics to try and gloss over you were just being hyperbolic though, people are totally sold.

Edit to add: I quoted the right temp difference but somehow failed. Keep fucking that chicken.

[char_]

So, who is going to bite on that juicy worm?

[AdironRider]

I'm sure there is furious googling to say "well actually AR the average temp in Breck was 25.2 degrees, and you neglected to account for the fewer joules of energy within the snowfall" or some bullshit that ignores the entire point that we are talking about whether or not there will be ski areas and whether they should pay a living wage.

Which they should by the way. Paying a liftie 15 bucks an hour is not outlandish. Every other seasonal business in a ski town has figured out how to pay more than that already, so can ski areas.

[powdork]

What's to bite on? There will not be a whole lot of difference in the mountains 50 years from now. If the snow level were to rise by 500' over 50 years, that wouldn't be a line on a tree that we could easily see. That would just mean there would be more warmer than average years. It doesn't mean great years go away completely.
Take Heavenly. It could mean more days you have to use the gondola to get to the goods instead of being able to ride the face. It certainly doesn't mean they would close.

But more importantly, we don't really know how warming will affect microclimates. Some mountainous areas may end up being snowier. My money is on jackson everyone should move there

[BCMtnHound]

Yup. Climate models for ecosystems with regards to temp are pretty good and well accepted. The confounding part for those ecosystems is precip. Timing, duration and intensity are all big uncertainties going 50+yrs into the future. The potential for precip to move from fall/winter to spring/summer for some locations is a very real possibility.

[Bunion 2020]

+4 (?...lost count). That is about the best summation of the industry and the state of 'living wage' in ski areas that can be made. So long as kids dream about being ski bums, wages will remain low. Supply/Demand in practice.

I agree that for the jobs that you can plug any 1/2 way sober 19 year old into, supply and demand will trump a living wage at least in the ski industry. 1-2 years and roll them over rinse and repeat.

For the Patrollers and Cat Drivers and to an extent the Mechanics etc there will be a reckoning when the areas can longer cover those spots, especially with the cost of housing anywhere near a ski town. The ski area sparkies and wrenches I know make far less than they could if they were plying their trade elsewhere.

[TBS]

So, who is going to bite on that juicy worm?

It was too easy...

[telefreewasatch]

If one wants to look at global temp rising #s, let's go to our freezers, the poles.
Antarctic temps are rising at five times the world average.
Arctic a little over two.
Both are accelerating beyond prediction.
The freezer doors are wide open.
Less ice means less reflected heat. More open water means more absorbed heat.
Add the release of CO2 into the atmosphere from permafrost melt to the pot.
Most scientists agree that even if we meet accord goals for future carbon emission, and close the freezer door, this train is gonna take a while to slow down let alone stop.
Not to mention rising oceans and that most people live within a coupla feet of sea level.

[GoldMember]

I agree that for the jobs that you can plug any 1/2 way sober 19 year old into, supply and demand will trump a living wage at least in the ski industry. 1-2 years and roll them over rinse and repeat.

For the Patrollers and Cat Drivers and to an extent the Mechanics etc there will be a reckoning when the areas can longer cover those spots, especially with the cost of housing anywhere near a ski town. The ski area sparkies and wrenches I know make far less than they could if they were plying their trade elsewhere.

And yet, they stay. I don't disagree with you but my point is that regardless of how much profit the area may make, they're going to pay the going rate. Once the COL is too high for the full-time staff to be able to stay, they may leave and the resorts will have to find ways to either make the COL less for their employees (employee housing, etc.) or invest in wages that allow them to stay and work. You're right, a day of reckoning will come but the pay will only increase due to need, not want on the part of the companies who own the areas.

[Bunion 2020]

Agree.

[river59]

If one wants to look at global temp rising #s, let's go to our freezers, the poles.
Antarctic temps are rising at five times the world average.
Arctic a little over two.
Both are accelerating beyond prediction.
The freezer doors are wide open.
Less ice means less reflected heat. More open water means more absorbed heat.
Add the release of CO2 into the atmosphere from permafrost melt to the pot.
Most scientists agree that even if we meet accord goals for future carbon emission, and close the freezer door, this train is gonna take a while to slow down let alone stop.
Not to mention rising oceans and that most people live within a coupla feet of sea level.

Yeah, but adiron poked his head outside and was slightly chilled.

Planetary albedo means fuck-all to someone who is in denial AND saw some snow last month. Daytuh don't amount to shit.

[AdironRider]

I didn't realize timeshares in Cabo being underwater mattered to ski areas and their living wage.

PS, in 2000 the NYT carried an article saying kids in 2020 would not know what snow is, citing you guessed it, the artic "freezer door being open" to quote you. In 2008, the artic was supposed to be ice free within 10 years (this was after Gore said it would be gone by 2013) according to NASA and we would have a catastrophe due to all the increased methane.

So save the doom and gloom, you guys are always wrong and there will be skiing in 50 years. Period. Maybe it will be a degree warmer, the horror.

It has been interesting though, Jackson has been getting more snow, so its not all bad, maybe you guys are right. More pow! Maybe then in 50 years they'll pay a living wage.

[telefreewasatch]

Climate change is about more than just rising temps. When the freezer has thawed it will affect weather patterns and sliding on snow in ways we cannot imagine.

Was the election stolen as well?

And why so snidely?
I suspect your kindergarten evaluation came back "Does not play well with others", eh?

[ZomblibulaX]

Sorry if a little hyperbole set everybody off, that was not my intent. But down here in the banana belt, a little bit warmer or drier means a lot of big problems for us. I agree, there will be sliding on snow in fifty years, but there might be a lot of little places that can’t swing it with a shortened season and even slightly warmer temps. Either way, I don’t see skiing becoming more accessible or affordable, and that is a true shame.

[Percy Rideout]

I looked at the NOAA site. You're right, it's 1 degree. Where you failed is that it's C not F. You didn't distinguish that point. The other fail is that it's risen about 1.5C since 1910.

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...al-temperature



You could have argued that temps have actually fallen substantially over the past 50 million years. Another link to the NOAA data. In reality, by Earth's long historical standards, we're in a very cool climate currently. However, I don't think working toward the mean is beneficial to skiing.

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...rths-ever-been

Finally, science instead of feelings.

We are one big volcanic eruption and/or large impact away from cooling the planet anyways...

[telefreewasatch]

Yeah, I'll apologize, too. Wrong thread, but sure feel strongly about trying to turn things around mostly for the sake of how many species a day we're dragging down with us?

Addressing this thread:
What Z said.
Been in the trenches at ski areas 45 years.
Nothings gonna change.
With prices going up in ski resort towns it just got way harder to buy a home nearby for a ski bum.
Acknowledging that it is more difficult now, but with sacrifice one can raise a family and provide for retirement on ski patrol wages and scrubbing toilets in the winter. Know how much that shit (pun intended) pays in resort towns? More than a dentist would think.
If interested in the nuts and bolts pm me; it's not impossible.

[nickwm21]

This thread reminds me of a friend that had a design job at large action sports company right out of college. He was doing sophisticated composites design and they were paying him like shit. He was denied several raises throughout his time there even though we was doing a great job and even developed a design that opened a new market for them. He worked there for a few years then left for a similar job in a different industry that paid him what he was worth. The action sports company had hardly any motive to pay him more, they had piles of resumes coming in the door from young professionals that wanted to work at the company due to the nature of the business.

For the skilled hourly, and salaried professionals... I'm sorry... I don't have too much sympathy. You can go get another job, not at at a ski resort and make more money if you want to. Part of your compensation is the fact that your office is the mountain and you can spin some laps at lunch, before, or after shift. I doubt [Insert Large Western Resort Name] has an issue filling a Jr level marketing position at 60% what the rate would be for the same job in the nearest decent sized town. As long as people are willing to work at the mountain, because it is the mountain, the wages will always be lower than ideal. I'd be willing to bet even the C Suite execs at Vail and Alterra could make ~20% more at a similar position at Applebees or Outback Steakhouse.

For the unskilled hourly. Life is tough and pay is shit wherever you work.... Applebees or Vail.

[old goat]

For the unskilled hourly. Life is tough and pay is shit wherever you work.... Applebees or Vail.

Forget the rest of your post. This is the gist. Henry Ford's great insight was that he could sell a lot of cars if he payed his workers enough to buy them. He was no bleedingheartliberal--it was pure self interest. America in the 50's and 60's was prosperous because the income structure was relatively flat by historical standards. As the gap between the rich and the poor with fewer and fewer in between grows to medieval levels our average life span decreases, our infrastructure falls apart, and the rich hide behind their well-guarded gates, but they can only hide for so long. The powerful in this country had best open their eyes and their wallets.

[Bunion 2020]

Hey now, much easier to look away and say fuck em, I got mine.

[k2skier112]

Yeah guys, the average temp in Jackson last month was fucking 21 degrees, 24 in Breck, 27 in Mammoth, 19 at Killington.

But lets all keep on keepin on about there will be no skiing in 50 years when even the worst case scenario of climate change still leaves it below fucking freezing in every area of the country that supports a ski area already.

Keep arguing semantics to try and gloss over you were just being hyperbolic though, people are totally sold.

Edit to add: I quoted the right temp difference but somehow failed. Keep fucking that chicken.

Do we need to edjukate you in weather vs climate, for fucts sake moron...

And you need to differentiate the types of "skiing" you throw out there. Most here are talking about lift served resort skiing. Sure there will always be snow to hike to or fly to. My gawd you can be an insufferable twat

[k2skier112]

https://www.newsbreak.com/oregon/gov...-for-more-snow
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/20/clim...-industry.html
https://www.statesmanjournal.com/sto...ng/2537799002/

[old goat]

Since this is turning into a climate change thread--article in the NYT today. Global warming may be slowing the Gulf Stream, which could turn northern Europe arctic. Or Moroccan. And it could happen almost overnight. Or not at all. The culprit, if there is one, is the melting of Greenland's glaciers which is dumping cold fresh water into the Northern Atlantic, which prevents the warm salty gulf stream water from sinking and traveling back south, which is what drives the gulf stream. Or not.
That's the difference between science and ideology--the more you know the less certain you are, and vice versa. Especially vice versa.

[Ottime]

^^^ This. Because my local mountain with the above pass/ticket prices also sells a bowl of soup or a slice for $3.50 and a Kokanee tall boy for $3. Basically you can fully fed and quite drunk for less than $20. I am quite certain there are not comparable options at Vail.

The cooler in the hatch of my subie can do that when parked at a Vail resort.

The thing about Vail is they suck. Pre Vail my family spent 100s of dollars dinging on mountain as it was reasonable and fun. Then Vail bought it, jacked the prices up 320% and now I just eat from my backpack. While my pass price has increased as well, we over all spend way less money at the resort.

Based on that, I’d suspect small resorts with cheap tix and cheap food sell more food than Vail with reasonable passes , expensive tix and expensive food. You just stop paying out the ass for it.

All that said, the pocket sandwich at the outpost at mammoth is money well spent. Also liked that place off See Forever at Telluride with the views of sick terrain. My wife always enjoyed her waffle atop Crystal. But those places are far and few between at resorts.

[AdironRider]

Do we need to edjukate you in weather vs climate, for fucts sake moron...

And you need to differentiate the types of "skiing" you throw out there. Most here are talking about lift served resort skiing. Sure there will always be snow to hike to or fly to. My gawd you can be an insufferable twat

Settle down, I’m not saying climate change doesn’t exist. I used those averages as examples, that are backed up over a century of data as legitimate examples of current climate, to show that statements like there won’t be resort skiing in 50 years are straight up wrong. You are talking about changes over over 10 degrees in under 50 years to the current climates of almost every US ski area. That is a blatantly sensationalist statement and is never going to happen.