Is it time to revisit the ski industry living wage?

[Bunion 2020]

Tell ya what, lets revisit this in 50 years and whoever is wrong can say so.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Anyone who thinks that F&B is a revenue source even remotely approaching ticket sales. I’ve got some ocean front property in Nevada to sell you. F&B is just a little icing on the cake compared to everything else.

Care to back that up with facts and not just your opinion? At the mountain I was referencing, I have seen the numbers and F&B revenue has been higher than lift tickets and passes for quite a few years (but this year it won't be true). If you take away operating costs and payroll for the mountain ops folks, they barely break even with lift tix and passes. Of course, our place has been referred to as a bar with a ski hill out back. I have noticed that my credit card bills have been less than half of a normal winter.

[Brownski]

Not sure if I weighed in yet but for what it’s worth if you want to make $14/hour bumping chairs you can. But you have to be willing to do it at Mountain Creek in NJ. That’s still not a living wage maybe (especially since they won’t schedule you a full 40 hours unless they’re desperate) but my son is happy with it.

[powdork]

Or you could work at Aspen who's starting pay is $15/hour, or California, who's minimum wage is $14/hour. Tell your son he doesn't have to live in Jersey

[mmmm...pow!]

Or you could work at Aspen who's starting pay is $15/hour, or California, who's minimum wage is $14/hour. Tell your son he doesn't have to live in Jersey

True, but then we are circling back to the original issue. $14 or $15 might be livable in some areas of the US, but unless you're living with mom and dad, that's far from a livable wage in Aspen or Tahoe, and for most would just barely get them by commuting from Glenwood or Reno for that money.
I moved to Tahoe almost 20 years ago, and feel like that's pretty much the tail end of ski bums being able to make it around here. A lot of people that moved here around that time are still here and have managed to make things work by juggling a couple jobs or going back to school and maybe not skiing quite so much. Local connections certainly help. But I don't see too many that have moved here more recently, up until the pandemic people showed up. And those people are certainly not ski bums. A lot of them may happen to ski, but it's definitely a different demographic.
But as with a lot of issues in our society right now, wealth inequality and the shrinking middle class is making it harder for the have nots, and there are no easy solutions, and any ideas that are floated immediately get shot down by one party or the other, because you have to pick your team and can't think for yourself on individual issues.

[powdork]

^^totally agree. i moved here 27 years ago and am getting squeezed out at the end of this month. my best chance for staying here at this point is buying a cargo trailer and outfitting it. we shall see.

[mmmm...pow!]

^^^Yeah, sorry to hear that. I might be in the same boat in a few months. After many years I worked my way into a better job that still supports the lifestyle, but in the past year the cost of living is just through the roof, and even Reno is now more expensive than Tahoe was just a couple years ago, albeit with more options. And now I make too much to qualify for any assistance, and can't qualify for a home loan that would cost about what I've been paying for rent for the past few years, and much less than I will likely be paying in the near future. Which of course makes saving for a home that much harder, so I'll just keep paying someone else's mortgage if I'm lucky enough.

[whipski]

[QUOTE=Ottime;6253196]The cooler in the hatch of my subie can do that when parked at a Vail resort.

once you've dropped $30 to park it

[old goat]

^^totally agree. i moved here 27 years ago and am getting squeezed out at the end of this month. my best chance for staying here at this point is buying a cargo trailer and outfitting it. we shall see.

Sorry to hear that.

On an unrelated note--it's worth remembering that there are a lot more people working at ski areas than just lifties.

[Percy Rideout]

True, but then we are circling back to the original issue. $14 or $15 might be livable in some areas of the US, but unless you're living with mom and dad, that's far from a livable wage in Aspen or Tahoe, and for most would just barely get them by commuting from Glenwood or Reno for that money.
I moved to Tahoe almost 20 years ago, and feel like that's pretty much the tail end of ski bums being able to make it around here. A lot of people that moved here around that time are still here and have managed to make things work by juggling a couple jobs or going back to school and maybe not skiing quite so much. Local connections certainly help. But I don't see too many that have moved here more recently, up until the pandemic people showed up. And those people are certainly not ski bums. A lot of them may happen to ski, but it's definitely a different demographic.
But as with a lot of issues in our society right now, wealth inequality and the shrinking middle class is making it harder for the have nots, and there are no easy solutions, and any ideas that are floated immediately get shot down by one party or the other, because you have to pick your team and can't think for yourself on individual issues.

Can confirm that the $14-15 isnt a livable wage in Glenwood Springs.

[char_]

But as with a lot of issues in our society right now, wealth inequality and the shrinking middle class is making it harder for the have nots, and there are no easy solutions, and any ideas that are floated immediately get shot down by one party or the other, because you have to pick your team and can't think for yourself on individual issues.

Income inequality is the real issue. There are a bunch of people at the bottom of the income ladder who are straight up being exploited and should be paid significantly more than they are currently.

To be clear, I’m not saying everyone should lead a middle class lifestyle, but 50 million people in this country should not be food insecure and people working full time should be able to afford basic housing, food and transportation.

We are myopically talking about ski area employees, but the reality is that increasing income and wealth inequality has been a fact of life across the country since at least the late 60s and from what I can tell it has no redeeming qualities.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
We are myopically talking about ski area employees, but the reality is that increasing income and wealth inequality has been a fact of life across the country since at least the late 60s and from what I can tell it has no redeeming qualities.

You don't find 5000 sq ft McMansions, 4 new cars, 2 boats, 3 motos, 2 side-by-sides, and a huge 5th wheel "redeeming"??

[Bunion 2020]

Less and less all the time.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

I used to think that people on minimum wage just weren't trying...I've become enlightened. I also used to think that minimum wage wasn't designed to provide a living wage...again, I realize how wrong I was. At its inception, the minimum wage was designed to provide enough for the wage earner to afford housing and food without assistance and it did. It just hasn't kept up. These are general thoughts and not focused on the ski industry.

Housing is the biggest issue in Vermont. So many wealthy folks looking to escape the cities are driving up the cost of housing to the point that locals cannot afford to even rent. It saddens me to see the number of people on local FB forums pleading for leads on affordable housing.

We need to look at how we generate revenue (taxes) in this country. Do we want to follow a European model where the government keeps 50-60% of your income but provides medical and retirement benefits? Many people say they do want that but living in Germany (or Denmark, or France, etc) looks a lot different than living in the US. Only the very rich (and those descendants of the rich) own homes. Only the wealthy can afford 2 cars. 2nd spouses generally walk or bicycle to work if there's no public transportation. Another option is to eliminate all deductions and loopholes and charge everyone a flat tax. This really favors the rich though. Don't have answers but the system needs a complete overhaul.

[old goat]

While income inequality is less in Europe, wealth inequality is greater. (Source, Piketty). One of the reasons being the aforementioned difference in home ownership, which is heavily subsidized in the US, but only for people with enough income to afford it--welfare for the well off.

Worth remembering that the top marginal income tax rate in the US was 91 or 92% from '44--'63, one of the most prosperous periods in US history. And it wasn't just the top earners who paid more. https://www.tax-brackets.org/federaltaxtable/1963

[AmmergauerTele]

People in VT are making minimum wage, wow crazy. I didn't think anyone made minimum wage. Here is Virginia Beach, signs up everywhere looking for people to work. Dunkin Donuts at $12 / hour for an entry level position are dime a dozen. Contractors can't get people to work for them even though they will make good money. Crazy....

[powdork]

well the minimum wage is $11.75 in vermont

[whipski]

Here we call it the Salida shuffle. Ski bum/river guides shuffle between 3 jobs. They do take great vacations in the off seasons living out of their cars/vans

[fastfred]

so like everyone who wants the ski bum dream should have a cheap place to live prime location and not have to work too much so they can ski as much as possible go out and party every night and live the dream its like a god given right aint' it?

good luck been listening to people complain for decades now same story different reason why it isn't there year after year

what is a livable wage? the market pays what the market will bear
the least likely people to live in a ski town are the ones who will end up spending a lifetime in a ski town
the ones who expect to have the dream handed to them on a silver platter all figured out for them are gone in a flash

[powdork]

so like everyone who wants the ski bum dream should have a cheap place to live prime location and not have to work too much so they can ski as much as possible go out and party every night and live the dream its like a god given right aint' it?

good luck been listening to people complain for decades now same story different reason why it isn't there year after year

what is a livable wage? the market pays what the market will bear
the least likely people to live in a ski town are the ones who will end up spending a lifetime in a ski town
the ones who expect to have the dream handed to them on a silver platter all figured out for them are gone in a flash

whatever.
yes the market pays whatever the market will bear, which is what led to a minimum wage being created in the first place. it's likely about to be reinstituted as a livable wage in most areas.

you seem to be of the mindset that the only god given right worth having is cheap labor.

[fastfred]

so once you start paying a higher minimum wage the cost of goods goes up? So then your "spring break 2021" t shirt is 40 bucks to offset the unskilled person selling them?

whats cheap labor? the idea that a lifty should make $20.00 thats nice, then my starting wage jumps to $30.00 and my skilled labor goes even higher
vail has been raising there hourly rates past couple years, no big numbers, but they realized they had too, someone is willing to live and work the experience of a lifetime for 12 bucks then that's what happens

[XXX-er]

5 pages of thinking i should contribute some obvious pearl of wisdom you comeup with this^^ and i don't have to

and its happening to everyone on the low end not just poeple who ski

people who didnt get in on the ground floor on opportunity ... didnt get in

[AdironRider]

I'm fine with lifties making 15 an hour (said it here already), but the expectation that a liftie should be able to buy a house/condo in a ski town on a liftie wage seems a bit like wishful thinking.

Every single contractor in every single ski town is hiring, right now, at 30+ an hour. Only qualification is having a pulse and show up on time. That is a living wage but you actually have to work. Funny the take rate isn't higher.

[char_]

I'm fine with lifties making 15 an hour (said it here already), but the expectation that a liftie should be able to buy a house/condo in a ski town on a liftie wage seems a bit like wishful thinking.

Yeah, the point of a livable wage (anywhere, not just in ski towns) isn’t so that people can buy houses, it’s so that they can afford housing of some sort while also being able to cover the rest of life’s expenses.

[AdironRider]

On their own? What about with a roommate? Maybe a spouse? News flash, rent or own, the cost is basically the same, with renting often being more expensive. Not every job is a career ultimately.

Somewhere along the line the definition of affordable housing and livable wage changed to where one should be able to have any job pay for everything with zero hardship or roommates, and in a ski town, don't forget the 2x a year trip to Moab and a 5K mountain bike, because everyone deserves it.