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  1. #51
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    Aug 2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtlange View Post
    Line for the stuff we sell. No brand gets warrantied more.
    Even the more recent stuff? Makes sense that Line and K2 have the same issues, they are the same company

  2. #52
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    Dec 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    As many of you have said, ON3P uses pretty high density Crown 4001 bases that are thicker than anyone else so they can take decent hits before going all the way through. The 4001 number is actually a measure of density which other companies like P-Tex(actually a name brand like Kleenex) will also list. If you go to the Volkl site, you will see what models of skis use what base versions. Many consumer models use the decent P-Tex 2100 vs race skis using 4000 and 4500 versions.

    Many mention black bases and they are usually Carbon infused now which will increase glide speed and the reason all race skis have black bases as they are usually high densities and carbon infused. Often called “race bases” in literature.

    Because carbon will discolour the base, anytime you see a colour besides a black base, it’s usually not infused. Moment switched from the Crown 4001 to another’s companies carbon infused 7500 black base this season and glide has been increased and should be a bit tougher as well. Use standard thickness on their bases though.

    So definitely a certain Salomon(or any company) could have a softer AND thinner base material vs an ON3P but a Salomon race ski may have an even denser and faster gliding base than an ON3P.
    Thanks for this info. It jives with my experience. Plain black bases are fastest. My older Moments are noticeably slower than my newer ones. And ON3P's are super durable, but possibly the slowest bases I've ever seen. They actually kinda suck on travers-y cat tracks to get back to the lift.

  3. #53
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    Sep 2009
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    I wonder about the hot box wax. Perhaps it's a detriment to glide.

    My 8 year old ON3Ps have hella fast bases. Been waxed a shitload, maybe fully displaced whatever factory wax is baked in. I pass on traverses all the time.

    But my PraxLhasas have black bases and are slow as fuck, even with a race grind and fluoro wax and 600 grit diamond edge polish. Maybe they're still a bit railed and are suctioning... I should check.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    3,064
    What' makes a grind a 'race grind'?

  5. #55
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    Aug 2006
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    Ogden
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    937
    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    What' makes a grind a 'race grind'?
    Jaegermeister

  6. #56
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    Sep 2009
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    That was stupid of me to say. There are all sorts of grinds of course... in this case it was a medium-depth diagonal pattern that many of the local race dweebs get from World Cup in Bellevue for average winter maritime snow at 30F. 2-step fiber-texed and wax/scraped like 5 times post grind.

    I think the cores weren't cured when Keith pressed them. The bases were concave before I brought em in, increasing at the thinner tips and tails. I bet the core warped further after the grind and they're edge-high again.

    Anyway, my point was that the glide is affected by several variables.

    Ok, I'm done thrunting

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Idaho
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    10,953
    I like the green bases. I like black too. I have a work light hanging above my bench so can pretty much always see how my waxing is going depending on the angle I’m looking at them. Something to be said for a sweet structure and wax on black though.

    Arbitrarily, I have some forest camo bases with a fresh wax. At a rope drop last week, I was lined up towards the back bs’ing with some buddies and ended up close to the front. Wasn’t trying to do anything special. Had a few dudes say man those are fast skis. They did feel like they were running fast. Not sure the base color mattered as much as the right temp wax and not skiing like a gaper. What’s funny, one of guys I was talking with also skis on not black bases and we rode the chair together.

  8. #58
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    Mar 2009
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    That probably has more to do w/ not being a gaper. When you're getting dusted on flat return roads/cattracks and working harder because of it, that's when you'll notice shitty glide

  9. #59
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    Oct 2005
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    Idaho
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    It was an upper lodge cat to the chair to get to the pow. But yeah, lots of gaping that day.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    578
    Quote Originally Posted by onenerdykid View Post
    Most race skis have black bases, but not all. It depends on the speed at which the racer needs to go. In slalom, for example, the speeds needed for winning a race don't necessitate a carbon-infused black base. This is why you see our athletes on multi-colored or red bases:

    Attachment 364761

    Attachment 364760

    When the speeds are faster than what is required in slalom, then you will see bases go all-black
    How often in a slalom race is more than a mm of the base along the edge even touching the snow? Those Atomics look like they have a black strip along the edge.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    424
    Find that burrs, nicks, cuts etc on edges can also make a big difference in glide speed when you might think the bases or wax are the issue.

    Had a friend who was just getting into ski tuning and mentioned she didn’t think hot waxing made much of a difference on her skis. I went over her edges at the top of the hill with a ceramic stone and found a few nicks on each ski but nothing crazy bad. On the way down she was screaming “holy shit, holy shit!” as she was staying with us on the flats for the first time that day. We were all surprised with the difference.

  12. #62
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    Aug 2006
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    salomon soft bases?

    Do the softer bases wear faster along the edges, making them base high more quickly?

    How does one get a good machine stone grind when their skis are base high or railed?

    How much does a recent grind and structure matter compared to (nonfluoro) wax? Especially for rope drops, cat tracks, and code blues?

  13. #63
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    Sep 2018
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    424
    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    Do the softer bases wear faster along the edges, making them base high more quickly?

    How does one get a good machine stone grind when their skis are base high or railed?

    How much does a recent grind and structure matter compared to (nonfluoro) wax? Especially for rope drops, cat tracks, and code blues?
    Think you are seeing “base burn” in your first question which is caused by cold/artificial snow which can be more abrasive on the wax. Shows up more on the edges and solved by using a colder temp/harder wax in those conditions. Not usually “wearing the base down” like you’re thinking.

    Most decent shops that offer race tunes and hand tuning usually will have properly trained techs that can properly assess the skis condition and how to correct its issues. True bar or even a straight edge metal scraper can be used at home to check for flatness and if there is some uniform structure on the base still.
    If it’s not flat and/or no uniform structure then it needs a STONE grind. A red flag is places that list BASE grind as that can just mean using sandpaper to flatten the ski which leaves a rough ski with no structure. Only have stones touch your skis to properly flatten and then structure them. Usually you’ll hit newly ground bases with brass brush then Scotch brite pads to smooth out the skis before waxing.

    A properly structured ski with defect free edges with a universal wax will be faster than an improperly prepared ski with any wax on it. Unless you’re racing, spending big money on expensive wax isn’t money well spent.

  14. #64
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    Dec 2010
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    西 雅 圖
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    If it’s not flat and/or no uniform structure then it needs a STONE grind. A red flag is places that list BASE grind as that can just mean using sandpaper to flatten the ski which leaves a rough ski with no structure. Only have stones touch your skis to properly flatten and then structure them.
    Most techs are very protective of their stones, which are expensive to replace and/or dress periodically. If a ski comes in with major issues, conscientious techs will put it through a series of passes on the belt with increasingly fine grits until it's flat, then put it on the stone . . .

  15. #65
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    Sep 2018
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    424
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Most techs are very protective of their stones, which are expensive to replace and/or dress periodically. If a ski comes in with major issues, conscientious techs will put it through a series of passes on the belt with increasingly fine grits until it's flat, then put it on the stone . . .
    Some places don’t even have the stone to finish on so that was my bigger concern. Most places will check the edges to remove issues that could damage the stone or as you said sandpaper first if major work is needed before it hits the stone.

  16. #66
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    Dec 2010
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    西 雅 圖
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    Some places don’t even have the stone to finish on so that was my bigger concern. Most places will check the edges to remove issues that could damage the stone or as you said sandpaper first if major work is needed before it hits the stone.
    For sure. If the edges are bad they will put the ski on the edger before it even gets to the belt . . .

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    30,881
    I had an evil handling pair of railed/ concave BD verdicts done on a 400000$ Montana saphir m/c

    far as i could tell the shop/ operator was entirely clueless, couldn't be depended on to load the M/C / turn it on but when they did the machine did an amazing perfect job

    there is no way I could have done a hand job anywhere near as good
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    Alta
    Posts
    2,931
    ^^^
    I’m a big fan of tunes that come out of machines. I don’t race just want a decent tune. The machine eliminates the lowly paid stoner from a sub par tune.

  19. #69
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    Dec 2010
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    西 雅 圖
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    ^^^
    I’m a big fan of tunes that come out of machines. I don’t race just want a decent tune. The machine eliminates the lowly paid stoner from a sub par tune.
    I prefer the glass-smooth surface produced by a 400 or 600 diamond stone rather than the rotary texture produced by a machine, but not many shops are gonna go to the trouble.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    8,965
    Currently, I’m using a skivisions hand tool. On my work skis, which gets between 10-20k vert ft per work day on groomers, when I run my skivision stone, my observation is that parts of the base adjacent to the edge, like underfoot sections, are not getting touched by the stone, ie. base high. Two seasons ago, these were stone ground and structured across the base. What’s caused the base high condition? I was under the impression that it was “wear,” ie the abrasive quality, of the snow. Edges are of good shape and burr free.

  21. #71
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    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    ^^^
    I’m a big fan of tunes that come out of machines. I don’t race just want a decent tune. The machine eliminates the lowly paid stoner from a sub par tune.
    these guys were so fucked up they forgot to put the skis in the m/c and turn it on so i said ok no worries but I gotta have those skis for tomorrow so I go for comp beers at the weasel tent, come back drunk& full of beer several hrs later, walk thru the shop to pisser in the back

    Stoner bro is loading my skis into the machine at which point i start laughing my head off and say " you forgot to do them again! " at which point they were angry i was laughing at them so i waited and skis were done in 15 min

    a perfect job if one remembers to load/ turn ze machine on
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    1

    Unhappy Salomon QST styrofoam core

    soft base - IDK I hadn't time to check as my QST 99 just cracked on first hitted stone in first day of skiing them.
    So I'd like to say Salomon has got fragile core.

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    5,013
    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    Think you are seeing “base burn” in your first question which is caused by cold/artificial snow which can be more abrasive on the wax. Shows up more on the edges and solved by using a colder temp/harder wax in those conditions. Not usually “wearing the base down” like you’re thinking.

    Most decent shops that offer race tunes and hand tuning usually will have properly trained techs that can properly assess the skis condition and how to correct its issues. True bar or even a straight edge metal scraper can be used at home to check for flatness and if there is some uniform structure on the base still.
    If it’s not flat and/or no uniform structure then it needs a STONE grind. A red flag is places that list BASE grind as that can just mean using sandpaper to flatten the ski which leaves a rough ski with no structure. Only have stones touch your skis to properly flatten and then structure them. Usually you’ll hit newly ground bases with brass brush then Scotch brite pads to smooth out the skis before waxing.

    A properly structured ski with defect free edges with a universal wax will be faster than an improperly prepared ski with any wax on it. Unless you’re racing, spending big money on expensive wax isn’t money well spent.
    If you need material removed (base high or edge high) they need a regular grind. Stone grind follows for structure and finish.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  24. #74
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    Nov 2006
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    NCW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    I wonder about the hot box wax. Perhaps it's a detriment to glide.

    My 8 year old ON3Ps have hella fast bases. Been waxed a shitload, maybe fully displaced whatever factory wax is baked in. I pass on traverses all the time.

    But my PraxLhasas have black bases and are slow as fuck, even with a race grind and fluoro wax and 600 grit diamond edge polish. Maybe they're still a bit railed and are suctioning... I should check.
    I have found that “hot boxing” my on3ps every summer on the uninsulated south wall of the garage has aged them like a fine wine.

    At the end of the season I crack a beer in the yard and apply some molybdenum then a layer of dense cold temp wax followed by my normal Toko universal, to be slowly absorbed by the bases one 90 deg day after another. By the time ski season rolls around the bases are waxed, rested and ready to go.

    One thing the on3ps have going for them that my Sollys have not is a killer structure to break any tension in warmer temps. Must be the PNW heritage.

  25. #75
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    Sep 2009
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    Oh I don't doubt the efficacy of base saturation. My earlier comment was questioning whether the quality of the wax used for factory hotboxing could be a noticable factor in glide.

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