Why Pozidriv?

[Pinned]

Maybe this is a Jong question...but why are most bindings using Pozidriv versus Hex or Torx?

Torx seems like it would be ideal to prevent stripping, but even Hex is a step up in terms of engaged surface area.

[stuckathuntermtn]

It seems like one of those things that started a long time ago and just keeps going because that's how it's set up. Like how BBQ and other sauces come in dipping cups, but ketchup still comes in packets even though it should really come in those dipping cups so you can get some ketchup on your fries when you drive. Or why there's still a ton of micro USB in the wild and not USB C. Also, torx might make it too easy to strip the hole or even delaminate the ski when dipshit forgets to tap. Better to strip the head of the screw a little than the little hole in the ski that's holding you on.

[Dee Hubbs]

Bonus point for spelling it correctly. It is often misspelled as Posidrive.
Pozidriv is an improved variation on the Phillips drive design. After the patent for the Phillips head expired, the company GKN Screws and Fasteners created the Pozidriv design.
It was designed to improve the cam-out issue that is common with bit/screw interface that occurs with a Philips head.
The Pozidriv drive style has the same self-centering design of a Phillips drive style but improves upon the two following factors:
Increased torque without cam-out
Greater surface contact engagement between the drive and the recess in the fastener head making it harder to slip when installed correctly.

An interesting read is One Good Turn: A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw, a book published in 2000 by Canadian architect, professor and writer Witold Rybczynski.
The idea for the book came in 1999 when an editor at The New York Times Magazine asked Rybczynski to write a short essay on the best and most useful common tool of the previous 1000 years. Rybczynski took the assignment, but as he researched the history of the items in his workshop – hammers and saws, levels and planes – he found that most dated well back into antiquity. At the point of giving up, he asked his wife for ideas. She answered: "You always need a screwdriver for something."
Rybczynski discovered that the screwdriver is a relatively new addition to the toolbox, an invention of the Late Middle Ages in Europe and the only major mechanical device not independently invented by the Chinese. Leonardo da Vinci was there at the start, designing a number of screw-cutting machines with interchangeable gears. Nevertheless, it took generations for the screw (and with it, the screwdriver and lathe) to come into general use, and it was not until modern times that improvements such as slotted screws came into being. Rybczynski spends some time discussing the Canadian invention, the Robertson screwdriver.

[Cocximus]

If I had a choice I would use hex heads. Ball hex is by far the best driver.

[waxman]

Rybczynski spends some time discussing the Canadian invention, the Robertson screwdriver.

Which arguably is the best screwdriver design in history and would make a great ski screw choice. Of course it may allow more dentists to mess up their skis than already do because it is more common than pozidriv.

[old goat]

Bonus point for spelling it correctly. It is often misspelled as Posidrive.

An interesting read is One Good Turn: A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw, a book published in 2000 by Canadian architect, professor and writer Witold Rybczynski.
The idea for the book came in 1999 when an editor at The New York Times Magazine asked Rybczynski to write a short essay on the best and most useful common tool of the previous 1000 years. Rybczynski took the assignment, but as he researched the history of the items in his workshop – hammers and saws, levels and planes – he found that most dated well back into antiquity. At the point of giving up, he asked his wife for ideas. She answered: "You always need a screwdriver for something."
Rybczynski discovered that the screwdriver is a relatively new addition to the toolbox, an invention of the Late Middle Ages in Europe and the only major mechanical device not independently invented by the Chinese. Leonardo da Vinci was there at the start, designing a number of screw-cutting machines with interchangeable gears. Nevertheless, it took generations for the screw (and with it, the screwdriver and lathe) to come into general use, and it was not until modern times that improvements such as slotted screws came into being. Rybczynski spends some time discussing the Canadian invention, the Robertson screwdriver.

I love reading stuff like that. One of my favorite magazine articles of all time was a piece about drywall in The Atlantic. A whole book about screwdrivers might be too much of a good thing though.

[Dee Hubbs]

Rybczynski spends some time discussing the Canadian invention, the Robertson screwdriver.

Which arguably is the best screwdriver design in history and would make a great ski screw choice. Of course it may allow more dentists to mess up their skis than already do because it is more common than pozidriv.

Henry Ford offered to buy Robertson's patent for use on the automotive assembly line, but he was un willing to sell the patent. The recently developed Phillips screw was used by Ford instead, and its inferior design flaw of caming-out at high torque actually became an advantage in the automation. It prevented the fasteners from being over torqued.

[XXX-er]

Somewhere A stoner with his pants on the ground is reading this and saying huh what they talkign about? So Its actualy a pretty good discussion question

cuz a #3 Phillips bits doesn't fit properly in a binding screw

If you grind the tip off a #3 Phillips bit it will fit less poorly in a PZ3 binding screw but it still doesnt fit

A PZ3 bit has 8 points 4 big ones/ 4 smaller ones, you can see the 4 small lines on the screw head which means its PZ

I think the only bindings not using PZ3 are later Dynafits that use Torx


I'm curious do they use robertson screws down across the line ?

[fleaches]

Henry Ford offered to buy Robertson's patent for use on the automotive assembly line, but he was un willing to sell the patent. The recently developed Phillips screw was used by Ford instead, and its inferior design flaw of caming-out at high torque actually became an advantage in the automation. It prevented the fasteners from being over torqued.

Was just about to say the real question is why Philips is so widespread since it sucks. I guess there you go.

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[galibier_numero_un]

And this ... is but one more reason I hang out on Tech Talk. Great stuff!

... Thom

[Dee Hubbs]

I'm curious do they use robertson screws down across the line?

You sometimes hear they called "SquareHead deck screws". But not very common. With the recent popularity of Torx, they are used more in construction than Robertsons.

[XXX-er]

Was just about to say the real question is why Philips is so widespread since it sucks. I guess there you go.

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I was motor head back in HS, all the japanese motorcycles used philips which were all soft like good cheese so you needed an impact driver to work on them

[XXX-er]

You sometimes hear they called "SquareHead deck screws". But not very common. With the recent popularity of Torx, they are used more in construction than Robertsons.

next they will invent their own metric system

Back in another life i used a whole lot of Bristo wrenches cuz all the HW was held together with Bristo screws which took a whole lot of torque you could put a pair of pliers on a skinny little bristo wrench and wind the shit out of it

the ATM's made by Diebold who later cost Trump the presidency were all ball socket hex

[abraham]

I was motor head back in HS, all the japanese motorcycles used philips which were all soft like good cheese so you needed an impact driver to work on them

Those weren't Phillips, more likely JIS with a slightly different design.

[Dee Hubbs]

Those weren't Phillips, more likely JIS with a slightly different design.

Whole different thread!

[XXX-er]

thats ^^ probably why they all stripped this was mid 70's

you could get allen head screw kits for somebikes which made reapirs way easyier

[climberevan]

Flathead screws should have been made ilegal when Robertson or Phillips was invented, whichever was first.

Once Torx was invented, all other screw head designs should have virtually disappeared from the market. The only application I can think of for Phillips these days is drywall, where having them cam out/strip when the right depth is reached is essential to the way a drywall driver works.

[Mustonen]

Flathead screws should have been made ilegal when Robertson or Phillips was invented, whichever was first.

Once Torx was invented, all other screw head designs should have virtually disappeared from the market. The only application I can think of for Phillips these days is drywall, where having them cam out/strip when the right depth is reached is essential to the way a drywall driver works.

Square head > Phillips for drywall.

Flatheads should be decorative only.

[muted]

I love reading stuff like that. One of my favorite magazine articles of all time was a piece about drywall in The Atlantic. A whole book about screwdrivers might be too much of a good thing though.

Reading books about paint drying should be on your list too.

[XXX-er]

No that's ^^ baseball

[abraham]

I love reading stuff like that. One of my favorite magazine articles of all time was a piece about drywall in The Atlantic. A whole book about screwdrivers might be too much of a good thing though.

My parents got me this as a gift, you might enjoy it.

[nickwm21]

Square head > Phillips for drywall.

Flatheads should be decorative only.

Why would you say that? You can more easily blind load a drywall gun with a phillips and they pop off the bit when they get enough torque and don't over drive. I've met plenty of anal retentive inspectors that take joy in failing screwing inspections on 2hr rated walls for over driven fasteners that rip the paper... You wouldn't want a bit to hold the screw better than a phillips.

[Dee Hubbs]

The JIS specification for screws/screwdrivers is longer an active standard, and has been absorbed into the current DIN 5260-ph (DIN is the Deutsches Institut für Normung or German Institute for Standardization)
So technically the JIS Standard no longer exists. And according to Vessel:
“As you might know, VESSEL is the oldest screwdriver manufacturer in Japan, and made a contribution to set a Japanese Industrial Standard (JIS) standard. We do follow JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) standard for cross point screwdrivers.
Because the technology to manufacture screwdrivers in Japan had already become above a certain level, JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) recognition system for screwdrivers became extinct in 2008.
So there is no authorized JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) manufacturer now, and we therefore cannot print “JIS” mark on our screwdrivers"

Newly produced tool, like the Park Tool DSD-2 screwdriver technically can't call them JIS, so they describe themselves as being “built to exceed JIS standards”

[Pinned]

Appreciate all the responses, I figured it was a case of "this is how it's always been."

There are a lot of fasteners out there, and I've got a boatload of specialty fastener tools, but Pozidriv is a new one for me. Guess I'll be adding another tool to the box.

Also, for you Canadians asking, Robertson aka Square drive has been quickly eclipsed by Torx here. These really only seemed to be used for decking (sometimes framing on a higher end job). But the Torx stuff is nice upgrade, the bits are sturdier than Square drive and seem to wear out more slowly. My drills have all had torque settings so I'm not worried about over driving the screws.

[altacoup]

Robertson screws are used extensively in the electrical trade. They work great. I’ve always assumed they’re used due to the lack of other tradesmen on the job having that tool. Don’t touch our shit!



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