Togwotee Pass fatality

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I'm another guy with the same opinion.




I would argue guys are doing neither of the above. I think you're hiding in what you think is a quiet corner of the internet talking shit. If you really think your tough love message is vital to get out there, or you're as badass as you say you are here's his IG, and here's a post about his death that has a huge audience. Why don't you quit hiding out here and go make your points there?

It’s not about being a badass, it’s about self awareness and knowing you can’t outwit the snow and terrain.

This is a sub forum about avalanches. I’m not an Instagram or social media person other than TGR.

It’s tragic this guy died, doesn’t matter if it was stupidity or ignorance. People need to know that it was a bad decision.

I’ve worked and played in high risk environments my entire adult life, mitigating risk is what’s important, not accepting it. No amount of vibes are going to make people feel okay with these accidents.


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[m2711c]

Agreed

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

People need to know that it was a bad decision.

Sure. Just like Foggy, I agree with your nuanced perspective on this. But your nuanced perspective isn't being called out. It's the tone of responses on page 1, and how it turned into a circle jerk of ripping on this kid for making a mistake.

[Danno]

It’s tragic this guy died, doesn’t matter if it was stupidity or ignorance. People need to know that it was a bad decision.

By definition, isn't the vast majority -- if not every -- avalanche accident discussed in here the result of a bad decision? Whether you want to call some stupid and perhaps see others as a mistake you might have made, they were all bad decisions with the benefit of hindsight. And regardless of whether you have deemed them "stupid" or "a mistake I might have made so one I should try and learn from", I assure you that everyone -- and especially the friends and family of the deceased -- know that it was a bad decision. You pointing that out isn't really teaching anyone.

[simple]

I find that if an accident is caused by snowboarder this forum usually is harsher than normal. Just an observation.

[m2711c]

Oh, come on now.... So this is really just boarder bias?

[MakersTeleMark]

I have been struggling to understand why so many professionals have been pulling their hair out trying to get messages across through words and media, and I think I have found one that has popped up a few times this winter already:

McKelvey however was determined to have been buried under 10 to 12 feet of snow

Make that part of Avi 1.

[simple]

Oh, come on now.... So this is really just boarder bias?

It might be why some people go right to slamming them. Psychological thing but just an observation. We all have some kind of bias.

[hatchgreenchile]

Boarder bias exists here (more in the codgers who think we sideslip everything), but It seems we're trying to rank fuckups that result in fatalities. Why did this rider earn the "stupid" , "ignorant" and "Darwin award" badge? Would you say the same thing to those in Millcreek and Ophir Pass?

We've seen some massive slides lately...20' crowns on Trelease, 3/4 mile propagation in the Never Summers, entire faces ripping out in the San Juans, this thing is tiny in comparison. Not exactly center punching a big line if you get my drift. I guess this is a strong reminder than even placid looking slopes or micro terrain features can kill.

Vibes to those who knew him - RIP.

[snowaddict91]

Just found out he was a friend of some acquaintances I took a trip with a while back. Another hit close to home. I think I might be ready for summer soon.

Also, boarder bias, ha. Anyone that is willing to admit that should take a few laps with some of my boarder friends.

[MakersTeleMark]

Just found out he was a friend of some acquaintances I took a trip with a while back. Another hit close to home. I think I might be ready for summer soon.

Also, boarder bias, ha. Anyone that is willing to admit that should take a few laps with some of my boarder friends.

It's just a few. It never even occurred to me that it was a rider. And, yes, there are many many that fucking tear me a new asshole in terms of skills of all kinds.

[whipski]

Better view of the scene. I thought I was looking at a kicker above the fracture, now not so sure.
https://www.jhavalanche.org/eventMap.php

not sure why it didn't link but click on event detail. they also list the cause of death as trauma

[raisingarizona13]

The shit talking about the victim is pretty low imo. No....it's super low. If the the few of those posting the harsh, judgmental comments would actually say those same words to the victims family and friends you are indeed a shit bag.

People make mistakes, every single one of us. Try to remain humble and compassionate eh? This 31 year old was buried 12 feet deep and was very likely not lucky enough to have the lights go out quickly from trauma.

One of my best riding buddies from my JXN days was very close with the victim btw. I don't know much about Michael other than he dripped more talent then all of us posting in this thread combined. I imagine he was a sponsored rider and I do have to wonder if the pressure to create marketable content played a part in this accident. Maybe it did maybe it didn't. I have no idea but that aspect must have an influence on some peoples decisions while riding/skiing.

That is all.

[raisingarizona13]

Better view of the scene. I thought I was looking at a kicker above the fracture, now not so sure.
https://www.jhavalanche.org/eventMap.php

not sure why it didn't link but click on event detail. they also list the cause of death as trauma

It was a booter. I hadn't read the report before my last post and hopefully he didn't suffer. With these deep burials I feel like a trauma COD is sort of a relief to hear.

[muted]

Looks like they put in a bootpack and someone boarded the line before jumping and it didn't fail. Maybe that fact made them think it was fine, although I'm speculating on when the bootpack and turns were put in.

I read that a defibrillator was on scene very quickly and revived him (S+R were practicing nearby when it happened). He died in the plane from JH to somewhere in Idaho, after being heli'd to the airport. So he didn't die in the avie.

MagUni: "People need to know that it was a bad decision.", thanks for this sage insight, go post on his IG page if you really care that his friends know, like kathleen says. Check your ego.

[Danno]

Better view of the scene. I thought I was looking at a kicker above the fracture, now not so sure.
https://www.jhavalanche.org/eventMap.php

not sure why it didn't link but click on event detail. they also list the cause of death as trauma

The kicker is definitely above the fracture, it is above the very first set of trees, just to lookers right of center in the second pic. Looks like there is another kicker towards the left side of the frame, about the same elevation.

[adrenalated]

This post here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLdYCV2H...d=kvshb69pt68q
makes it sound like this is a close to the road, common place to build jumps.

I do think the distinction between ignorance or not is important. Ignorance is actionable. We can make an effort to reach ignorant individuals. How best to do that is very much a topic open for debate. Being involved with an avalanche awareness organization, I think about this A LOT and I certainly don't have all the answers, and maybe none at all.

If not ignorant, getting caught in an avalanche requires making the choice to travel in avalanche terrain, and so all fatal avalanches imply a bad decision, as Danno said. I mention that because it came up here, but I'm generally a lot more interested in what caused someone to make a bad decision, not the fact that they made one. That's actionable material that I can use to improve my decision making and help pass to others.

I don't think there's a big flippy spinny backcountry booter crowd here, but if this was in fact a commonly used jump spot, a short steep slope that's usually fine, traveled on a lot, and people don't really think too much about? That can absolutely apply to other backcountry travel! Are there places you go that have short, steep slopes close to the parking lot/road that you or others generally don't think too much about? There sure are most places I go. Little roadcuts, maybe a creek bank, or just that little pitch right above the lot that "never slides." If it's steep enough to slide, someday it will.

Being able to take something constructive from an accident doesn't require you to be capable of making the exact mistake, on the exact slope, on the exact day as the victim. Or to learn something new that you didn't know. You can look at this accident and instead of saying "they were stupid and I never would have done that" you can say "I wouldn't have been in that exact situation but I need to remember to continue being extremely vigilant of small, steep, consequential terrain even if it's in a commonly used area or close to the car." At least for me, I think that's a lot more constructive to keeping me and my friends safe in the backcountry.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

My apologies for coming across poorly, I’m just really tired of hearing about these accidents and all we can offer is vibes.

All of these high profile accidents this season seem like easily avoidable tragedies. I know, hindsight. The thing is, everything in these accidents was pointing to back off.

I’m done.


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[Bunion 2020]

Fair enough. I think we are all beyond sick of this death toll.

3 phone calls from my sister in the past 10 days to check if I was being safe.

[seano732]

Fair enough. I think we are all beyond sick of this death toll.

3 phone calls from my sister in the past 10 days to check if I was being safe.

28 and counting, with the ID one grrr just posted. Brutal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weath...yearly-deaths/

[romeo tango]

.... Are there places you go that have short, steep slopes close to the parking lot/road that you or others generally don't think too much about? There sure are most places I go. Little roadcuts, maybe a creek bank, or just that little pitch right above the lot that "never slides." If it's steep enough to slide, someday it will....

its possible we develop tunnel-vision when evaluating avy terrain
focusing on big slopes with big consequences
and ignoring micro-terrain that appears harmless

its also possible we are inadvertently conditioned to think this way
just a though ....

vibes to family, friends and community

.

[simple]

Fair enough. I think we are all beyond sick of this death toll.

3 phone calls from my sister in the past 10 days to check if I was being safe.

Similar. My dad has never called me to ask me to stay out of the backcountry and he did last week.

[homemadesalsa]

This post here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLdYCV2H...d=kvshb69pt68q
makes it sound like this is a close to the road, common place to build jumps.

I do think the distinction between ignorance or not is important. Ignorance is actionable. We can make an effort to reach ignorant individuals. How best to do that is very much a topic open for debate. Being involved with an avalanche awareness organization, I think about this A LOT and I certainly don't have all the answers, and maybe none at all.

If not ignorant, getting caught in an avalanche requires making the choice to travel in avalanche terrain, and so all fatal avalanches imply a bad decision, as Danno said. I mention that because it came up here, but I'm generally a lot more interested in what caused someone to make a bad decision, not the fact that they made one. That's actionable material that I can use to improve my decision making and help pass to others.

I don't think there's a big flippy spinny backcountry booter crowd here, but if this was in fact a commonly used jump spot, a short steep slope that's usually fine, traveled on a lot, and people don't really think too much about? That can absolutely apply to other backcountry travel! Are there places you go that have short, steep slopes close to the parking lot/road that you or others generally don't think too much about? There sure are most places I go. Little roadcuts, maybe a creek bank, or just that little pitch right above the lot that "never slides." If it's steep enough to slide, someday it will.

Being able to take something constructive from an accident doesn't require you to be capable of making the exact mistake, on the exact slope, on the exact day as the victim. Or to learn something new that you didn't know. You can look at this accident and instead of saying "they were stupid and I never would have done that" you can say "I wouldn't have been in that exact situation but I need to remember to continue being extremely vigilant of small, steep, consequential terrain even if it's in a commonly used area or close to the car." At least for me, I think that's a lot more constructive to keeping me and my friends safe in the backcountry.

Nicely said, @adrenalated. Trying to extend empathy past the empathy gap. I had a random xc dude at the post office say the same thing as Bunion's sister. Astonishing.

[goldenboy]

Similar. My dad has never called me to ask me to stay out of the backcountry and he did last week.

Shades of Tunnel Creek, exactly 9 years ago today (in that a lot of people, myself included, got calls from people who don't necessarily ski bc, but were worried because of the national news part of it). I miss Jim Jack a lot

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Shades of Tunnel Creek, exactly 9 years ago today (in that a lot of people, myself included, got calls from people who don't necessarily ski bc, but were worried because of the national news part of it). I miss Jim Jack a lot

Just home from a day on the hill with a lot of people remembering their friends.

I remember the last time I saw Jim Jack alive.


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