So when do we talk about opening up some new ski areas?

[old goat]

If you are ok skiing something other than fresh snow, the lines aren't that bad. But now EVERYONE only skis with 6"+ of fresh snow. Everyone stays home with their fat rockered skis and only goes skiing when there is fresh snow. I know, it is amazing but now every single skier does this.

I have gone so many days 1-2 days after a storm and skied all day with no lines...on a weekend.

Instagram shots of bump skiing or steep chalk just don't cut it. Gotta get the pow shot for the gram.

Steep chalk is my favorite--at least it was until I had a bad accident and decided that at 70 I should dial it back.
bumps not so much.

[powpig]

Hey, it turns out all the mellow terrain they added at Snowbowl is actually pretty nice. What's a guy to do but it ski it? Yeah, it's low angle, but there's also no tracks on it. Count me in.

You'll never win at Gnar with an attitude like that.

[toast2266]

If you are ok skiing something other than fresh snow, the lines aren't that bad. But now EVERYONE only skis with 6"+ of fresh snow. Everyone stays home with their fat rockered skis and only goes skiing when there is fresh snow. I know, it is amazing but now every single skier does this.

I have gone so many days 1-2 days after a storm and skied all day with no lines...on a weekend.

Instagram shots of bump skiing or steep chalk just don't cut it. Gotta get the pow shot for the gram.

It's gotten to the point where I'm kinda disappointed when there's a big pow day in the forecast because it means that the lift lines will be insane and I'll get precious little actual skiing in. I'd much rather have a steady trickle of minor refreshes that make everything ski well but don't get the pow hungry masses out of bed.

Which sucks. Because I really like skiing pow without having to hike for it.

[johnnyg82]

Alterra's spending some money, new lift at Tremblant last year, and new terrain planned too

Mountain of Investments: New Summit, New Beginner Area and More! - Blogue Tremblant

[XXX-er]

It's gotten to the point where I'm kinda disappointed when there's a big pow day in the forecast because it means that the lift lines will be insane and I'll get precious little actual skiing in. I'd much rather have a steady trickle of minor refreshes that make everything ski well but don't get the pow hungry masses out of bed.

Which sucks. Because I really like skiing pow without having to hike for it.

IME localy the powder hounds will book off for 20cms overnight

but they don't won't book off for 7cm falling for 3 nights in a row

and even if they do all 3days are gona be pretty good

give me 3 x 7's instead

[TWA]

Harley ever post on here but interesting topic that I have some good knowledge in. Skier numbers are flat for the most part. The large increase in “busy” mountains is because of the pass options these days. Makes access of more ski areas east. So while skier numbers might be flat, people are skiing more at more then just one resort. The influx of people to some regions is inflating crowding at some places (Wasatch especially). Money is also easy to come by for the “average”’people. Meaning, people have more money these past few years then ever. So flying to SLC, Jackson, Steamboat to ski a few times a year is no big deal.

On resort expansion, so hard to have another “large” resort come out of nowhere. Like mentioned above, it would have to be a private land deal close to big city. I live in Utah. I know of 2 places within an hour of SLC that could host a new build of a large 3,000-5,000 acre resort with sustained snowfall. But buildout costs would exceed $250m. Could some billionaire yuppie do it? Maybe? Also build out time frame of something like this is 5 years minimum.

As to Wasatch Peaks Ranch mentioned above. That was one of the last big private parcels around. 12,000 acres or something. 45min from SLC. Sold for like $40m. That ski area is green lit. I think they paused last summer in Covid but will start this spring. Poma has the lift contracts. But “we” will not ski there. This is Yellowstone club 2.0.

Finally, again here in UT. Mayflower is still doing something. Kinda backside of Deer Valley to keep it simple. Horrible aspect and elevation. I know base area construction is back up and going. Do not know about lift contracts. Ex Vail big mucky muck got hired on to oversee. But this is a “resort/real estate” with a ski area attached. My opinion on this project - dumpster fire.

[AdironRider]

Are you saying the overall number of people who call themselves "skiers" is flat, or that actual number of skier visit days are?

I find it incredibly hard to believe the latter without seeing mom and pops going bankrupt left and right, which as far as I can tell, they aren't.

IMO actual skier visit days are the demand, not some arbitrary number of people who say they ski.

[TWA]

Are you saying the overall number of people who call themselves "skiers" is flat, or that actual number of skier visit days are?

I find it incredibly hard to believe the latter without seeing mom and pops going bankrupt left and right, which as far as I can tell, they aren't.

Last years “skier visits” were down (Covid - can’t go by that). One of the last things I read showed in general skier visits were flat for past 10 years or so. Slight ups and downs.

But Epic pass sales were up. For what that is worth. No info on Ikon.

Curious to see skier visit numbers when this winter is complete. Still have Covid, we have all seen the people explosion at resorts, very good winters on both coasts (x mas east coast got washed out).

Another factor is the Vail and Alterra companies are not going to invest $250m or whatever to build a new resort when they can just rake it in with what they have.

[AdironRider]

10 years ago we were in a recession. I find it hard to believe skier visits are flat from 2009-2019.

Something isn't adding up. Every major resort in the west has crowding issues, from Crystal to Jackson and everyone in between. It can't just be a perception problem.

[toast2266]

Not sure if this data is available in other states, but here is skier visit data for Montana.

I question the accuracy of the data for many of the smaller resorts. But overall, it seems like skier visits for the larger areas are moderately increasing while most of the smaller areas are pretty flat.

It's also interesting how variable the skier visits are from year to year. It seems like it'd be hard to run a business where your customer base varies up to 30% in any given year for reasons that are almost impossible to predict.

[AdironRider]

So in the past 10 years Montana alone gained 500k skier visit days.

I know for a fact Jackson has doubled skier visit days (give or take) over the same timeframe. That's an increase of almost 400k skier visit days at just Jackson alone also.

They didn't all come from White Pine if you know what I'm saying.

[old goat]

Important to distinguish between visits and skiers. Visits are up because everyone has a pass so the incremental cost of a day of skiing is zero, like the man said. No incentive for existing players to invest in a big new area or major expansion because it won't help them sell more passes--they have probably maxed out the combined number of passes and it's a zero sum game now. At some point we may start to see more limits on the number of passes sold combined with a big price increase. If some uber rich skier has a spare 250M to drop on a ski area it will be private. No one is going to sink that kind of money into skiing as a business with the climate forecast.

[thefortrees]

At some point we may start to see more limits on the number of passes sold combined with a big price increase.

Something isn't adding up. Every major resort in the west has crowding issues, from Crystal to Jackson and everyone in between. It can't just be a perception problem.

"Limits" on number of passes sold, heh... Screenshot yesterday of the main lift on my hill @ 9:25 yesterday, a fucking Wednesday morning. Main parking lots at capacity and closed around 10AM. This has been the norm when there is fresh snow this season, weekday or weekend. The larger resorts in the ski industry are great at cooking the books and create a perception of scarcity to drive up demand.

[Bunion 2020]

Look at the bright side, at least your local hill has web cams so you can judge for yourself how big a shit show is going on?

So in the past 10 years Montana alone gained 500k skier visit days.

How do you arrive at that determination?

[summit]

I thought someone was opening a sizeable mountain out by Steamboat?

When you look at the Front Range of CO, there is not much to open that has reliable snow and good roads unless you wanted to reopen It is interesting to look at all the little hills that were closed when there were hills in Golden, Estes Park, and on Pikes long before decent snowmaking existed.
http://www.coloradoskihistory.com/lostresorts.html
https://www.outtherecolorado.com/blo...16b5f977d.html

Even trying to (re)open Eclipse at St. Mary's was voted down by local government 10 years ago due to the road. The philosophy of that resort was affordable skiing and terrain park. This is the same as when local government voted down reopening Geneva Basin 30 years ago (burn the lodge). Berthoud Pass? Dead (burn the lodge almost 20 years ago)
http://www.coloradoskihistory.com/ne...ysglacier.html

Basically every affordable small hill option on the Front Range has died and not been allowed to reopen. There is Echo, which has been troubled, where you can pay $58 for access to 1 chairlift.

This is why there aren't new skiers. A family of four trying to keep things cheap needs to drop $1350 (Ski Cooper) to $2200 (Epic Summit Value) for budget season passes while ski gear prices have doubled and lesson prices are astronomical.

[The SnowShow]

It’s a shame there isn’t a viable small mountain in the Front Range foothills that families can go to (would get a bunch of traffic off the road) and could have night skiing. Like another Eldora but closer.

I mean, my friend in Harrisburg PA has easier skiing access than I do in Denver! She can drive 20 mins to a small hill, ski/night ski and go back to work. Sure it’s shit skiing but it’s skiing. It’s too bad Arapahoe East or something like that couldn’t reopen. I’d love to go bang out some icy laps at 8pm some nights if something opened near Golden or Evergreen. You would need a north face and lots of snowmaking capabilities. Maybe expand Echo into something great for families.

[FortySixMac]

It's been so busy here I'm now looking forward to mid week packed powder days.

Make mogul skiing rad again........2021.

Mogul skiing will always be rad


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[Bunion 2020]

This Austrian ski resort is preparing for a snowless future
St. Corona is a model for ski resorts in the Alps that are transitioning to mountain biking, hiking and other tourist offerings that don’t depend on snow


ST. CORONA AM WECHSEL, Austria — In this village at the foot of the easternmost reaches of the Alps, a ski town for four decades, the climate catastrophe became evident in December 2015. Villagers would usually be wearing puffy coats and knitted hats. Instead, a balmy 70 degrees Fahrenheit forced them into cargo pants.

“I was sweating, in every sense,” said Karl Morgenbesser, a former ski instructor. At 34, he had just taken over as general manager of St. Corona’s once-bustling ski resort. A warming climate, however, was rendering skiing unappealing to investors. Public subsidies for the resort, which is owned by a development arm of the regional government, had already been cut off.

If cold winters were disappearing, Morgenbesser thought, why not pivot to summer?

Initially, the idea of reorienting the town’s economy from cold to warm weather was met with ridicule. Skiing is practiced by a third of Austrians, making the sport not just a major source of income but a cultural touchstone, too.

But the sight of the muddy mountainside, dotted with tufts of grass at the beginning of the usually lucrative Christmas holidays, made villagers rally behind Morgenbesser. “It proved that we could no longer rely on skiing,” the father of two said. “In hindsight, it was a blessing in disguise.”

In the five years since, St. Corona succeeded where hundreds of other low-lying ski resorts have struggled. It transitioned from a victim of climate change to an example of adaptation success. And it’s now leading the way for other communities nestled among the Alps.

In summer 2016, St. Corona opened a summer toboggan course that’s akin to a roller coaster, as well as a bike park for children and an activity and climbing space. In 2017, those activities lured more than 7,000 paying visitors. That was enough justification for the regional government and the village, population 400, to invest further.

They built landscaped summer hiking paths themed around ants and created rentals for stand-up paddleboards at the reservoir lake. Most importantly, Morgenbesser devised a vast network of mountain biking trails, suitable for every skill level and age group.

In 2020, the village attracted more mountain bikers in summer than skiers in winter. About 200,000 visitors came to St. Corona last summer, 35,000 of whom were bikers. Many were from Vienna and opted to vacation closer to home during the coronavirus pandemic, as opposed to more traditional summer vacation spots in Spain and Greece. “Essentially, we doubled our numbers each year,” Morgenbesser said of the paying bikers. The summer season now offsets any losses incurred from unpredictable winters. “And summer is growing,” he said.

Traversing France and Switzerland, then arching through Austria and swaths of Germany, Italy and Slovenia, the Alps are not only the most populated mountain range in the world but also the most visited. About 120 million tourists travel here each year, many of them lured by the 1,100 ski resorts that dot the slopes below its snow-capped peaks.

But since the 1960s and ’70s, when skiing began driving the economies of thousands of villages, the Alps have warmed at twice the global average. Billions of dollars have been invested in snow-making technology. Elaborate networks of snow cannons that spit man-made powder over slopes were installed to guarantee a winter wonderland.

European cities make way for more bikes during the coronavirus pandemic

And yet if the climate warms by another 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit, a third of resorts in the eastern half of the Alps will be too warm for snow — natural or man-made — to stick to the ground throughout the ski season. “When it’s too warm, the snow melts — period,” said Reto Knutti, a climate scientist and professor at Switzerland’s ETH Zurich university. “It’s simple physics.”

St. Corona offers a blueprint for survival — and the ski industry is taking note. About 30 ski resorts in Austria, Italy and Switzerland have sent fact-finding delegations to the village.

“We can definitely tell that summers are getting longer and warmer, and we need to offer something besides skiing,” said Armin Kuen, general manager of the tourism board of Fieberbrunn in western Austria, who recently joined his colleagues on a five-hour bus ride to St. Corona to learn about its adaptation.

Mountain biking seemed like an obvious fit, but Fieberbrunn officials weren’t convinced. “They thought of these crazy, rowdy bikers darting down the mountain,” Kuen said. “And we’re more relaxed and very much about families.”

When his group arrived on a sunny September afternoon last year, they did indeed spot daredevil bikers in protective gear. But they also found elderly people breezing uphill on electric bikes, children playing in the bike and climbing park while their parents ate brunch, and young couples checking out the once-dilapidated restaurant that had just reopened as a mid-century-style wedding venue.

“It’s a prime example to make summer in the mountains attractive for literally anyone who can ride a bike, from downhill professionals to little ones and grandmas,” Kuen said. Fieberbrunn is now in the process of creating a biking trail for beginners.

Neighboring Saalbach, due to host its second skiing world championships in 2025, already has a network of trails. Inspired by St. Corona, it plans to better integrate with the regional bus system so that specially outfitted buses can ferry cyclists and their bikes from the bottom of trails to the top. It has already modeled a bike park for small children after St. Corona’s.

Schladming, which has twice hosted world ski championships, also took a page from St. Corona’s book.

Though it had long invested in the summer season, downhill mountain biking had plateaued, said Georg Bliem, the general manager. A trip to St. Corona, he said, “was the most valuable fact-finding mission we took in the past 20 years.”

With ease, the visitors from Schladming coasted down a mountain bike trail with banked curves and small jumps, all cleared of roots and pebbles. As soon as they returned home, they began building more than 11 miles of bike trails, a new children’s bike park and other attractions.

The number of tickets sold in Schladming to warm-weather mountain bikers has ballooned from 9,000 in 2018 to 45,000 in 2020. And it’s growing. This year, an additional 4.5 miles of bike trails will be dug into the mountainside.

While climate change reveals the benefits of diversification little by little, the pandemic lockdowns and travel restrictions have done so in an instant.

France and Germany have kept their ski runs shut this winter, while Switzerland’s and Austria’s are largely devoid of foreign tourists. “The resorts that diversified, that have been offering hiking, culture, cycling, wellness, they’ve been doing much, much better” in coping with the economic impact of the crisis, said Matthias Horx, a German futurist who is examining the pandemic’s lasting impact on Alpine skiing.

The pandemic will reset the ski industry and prompt resorts to reconsider their investments, he said.

In addition to its position as a thriving summer resort, St. Corona is now reaping an added benefit. Named after what some say is the patron saint of pandemics, the village is drawing day-trippers seeking to snap a photo of its street sign as well as pilgrims who want to pray at the altar of the saint.

This winter has been surprisingly snowy in St. Corona. A new lift built last summer to tow mountain bikers up the peak is now pulling skiers.

“With climate change, we need to be adaptable,” said Morgenbesser, whose name translates to “a better tomorrow.” He didn’t want to say what he thinks the future will hold — not in 20 years, or even in 10. He just offered simple advice: “Don’t bet on one horse.”

.

[chicken feathers]

I thought someone was opening a sizeable mountain out by Steamboat?

Rumors of Stagecoach reopening float around every few years...doubt it ever will. Or maybe you're thinking of Steamboats planned expansion.

As for smaller areas, a patroller at Howelson Hill (city operated hill) in Steamboat told me they are seeing record numbers of skiers there this season. A season pass there is < $300 I think. Prior to covid though I think the city was loosing money on the place at a pretty alarming rate. You can find poorly written articles about it and other concerns courtesy of the Pilot.

I've been blown away by how many are night skiing at Steamboat this winter.

I can appreciate how much money it must take to run a small hill. Still, I'm curious to know just how much the influence the major players have over local gov. and attempts to reopen said places.

If anything, I'd expect some more places like Bluebird BC to pop up on private land.

Seems like all I can count on for decent resort skiing any more is chasing the spring sun through bumps and groomers.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

10 years ago we were in a recession. I find it hard to believe skier visits are flat from 2009-2019.

Something isn't adding up. Every major resort in the west has crowding issues, from Crystal to Jackson and everyone in between. It can't just be a perception problem.

The crowding is only an issue when the powder hype marketing is in action and on holidays.

Marketing at ski areas can bring people out for new snow even if it’s warm, wind fucked and maybe even raining. All they need to do is report POWDER! That’s all people care about because that’s what they’ve been fed by the ski area marketing.

Perfect example was 1/24 at Alta, fucking frenzy for 15” of Stevens Pass snow. All I heard in the lift lines all day was “It’s kinda heavy”. It really was unremarkable for UT. The next day was colder with 4-5” of new and the crowd and vibe was a lot more chill. Better skiing day in my opinion.


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[chicken feathers]

Marketing at ski areas can bring people out for new snow even if it’s warm, wind fucked and maybe even raining. All they need to do is report POWDER! That’s all people care about because that’s what they’ve been fed by the ski area marketing.

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Remember a 4/5 years ago when the ski industry started marketing carving and groomers again? Last time I picked up a copy of SKI or something similar I think they still were...Not gonna lie, makes me a bit nervous.

Nothing is sacred!

$$$$$$$$

[AdironRider]

The crowding is only an issue when the powder hype marketing is in action and on holidays.

Marketing at ski areas can bring people out for new snow even if it’s warm, wind fucked and maybe even raining. All they need to do is report POWDER! That’s all people care about because that’s what they’ve been fed by the ski area marketing.

Perfect example was 1/24 at Alta, fucking frenzy for 15” of Stevens Pass snow. All I heard in the lift lines all day was “It’s kinda heavy”. It really was unremarkable for UT. The next day was colder with 4-5” of new and the crowd and vibe was a lot more chill. Better skiing day in my opinion.


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Yeah, no. Jackson has massive lift lines on average. 4” days as well.

Go read the Crystal thread and they were turning people away in early December due to crowds.

Go look at Steamboat lift line pics.

Head over to AZ and listen to the jabronis bitch.

It is no longer just pow days, and that is the entire point of this thread.

[old goat]

Yeah, no. Jackson has massive lift lines on average. 4” days as well.

Go read the Crystal thread and they were turning people away in early December due to crowds.

Go look at Steamboat lift line pics.

Head over to AZ and listen to the jabronis bitch.

It is no longer just pow days, and that is the entire point of this thread.

No. The point of this thread--whether you like it or not--is that no one is going to be opening a major new resort, not now, not ever.

[blazes_boylan]

We all have a front row seat to watch the excruciating death rattle of quality lift-served skiing. Every season worse than the previous one, year after year. Just when you think it can't become more ridiculous, it does on an exponential level. Part of it is the mega-consolidation/corporatization of the industry and the cheap mega-multi mountain passes. But just as much--if not more--of it is the skiers (many of whom are regulars here) who loudly cheered the Ikon & Epic Passes and the many new mountains it cheaply added to their pass without ever realizing that it would turn each and every one of these mountains into a massive disney shitshow that would obliterate everything that made these mountains worth skiing. Isn't it ironic that you got to save some coin going to Jackson Hole, but a season too late once it lost what made it special. Personally, I'd rather drop some money to ski these special places when they served quality rather than save a small amount of money for a shitty experience. Its nothing more than Pennywise and Pound Foolishness. This is happening everywhere and has only been encouraged by the buying decisions of the ski consumers whose wallets have demonstrated to these companies time and again that they greatly prefer quantity over quality. Seems like the most American thing I've ever seen. Short-sightedness completely destroying what one was seeking to begin with. But at least we get days at Alta on our pass....how could we have ever of swung going there without them.

[Harvey44]

Are skier visits up? That would surprise me.