So when do we talk about opening up some new ski areas?

[stuckathuntermtn]

I'm pretty sure if Vail bought snowbowl the management would be significantly improved.

True, but that's not saying much.

[detuned]

The demand clearly exists for more ski terrain, when do we get it?

usually around memorial day near the wy/mt border

[Snow Dog]

Big White (Kelowna, BC) is working through approval for their long term master plan (can they use the word "master"?). It would double the size of the resort. It's shockingly complex since every stakeholder has input and has to be respected. This would include forestry, mining, hunting, outdoor recreation, first nations, locals and on and on. Plus all the environmentals (streams, rivers, roads, waste management, water...)

This is an update to an existing plan and has been going on for years.

[old goat]

So many classic resorts were started by avid skiers with a vision. Hard to see that happening now, even if the FS and the market allowed it. Unless Troy Caldwell can manage to finally cash in on his little piece of paradise, but that will depend on Squaw building it's gondola.

[Bunion 2020]

Ski Areas? Or Ski Resorts?

Too little $$$ in Ski Areas unless you have someplace that has the terrain, gets a lot of reliable snow, has decent access and a population base within 1-2 hrs. Most of those possible sites no longer exist.

Too much impact from Ski Resorts, only people interested are not skiers.

[FortySixMac]

So many classic resorts were started by avid skiers with a vision. Hard to see that happening now, even if the FS and the market allowed it. Unless Troy Caldwell can manage to finally cash in on his little piece of paradise, but that will depend on Squaw building it's gondola.

Might be possible with a short term loan from Rob Katz.


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[FortySixMac]

Ski Areas? Or Ski Resorts?

Too little $$$ in Ski Areas unless you have someplace that has the terrain, gets a lot of reliable snow, has decent access and a population base within 1-2 hrs. Most of those possible sites no longer exist.

Too much impact from Ski Resorts, only people interested are not skiers.

Don’t go changin’ Bull Mountain.


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[Leshphilling77]

Keep thinking about the guy that was trying to build the bitterroot resort outside Missoula.

[hatchgreenchile]

The premier sites were built up long ago, and much of the remaining sites with favorable snow + terrain + aspect are locked up under NPS or Wilderness.
Never say never, but I think mega resorts buildouts are done in the lower 48. Small to medium buildouts still could happen (ex. look at Kendall Mtn plan, which would take a Kicking Horse / Revelstoke path)
In the past 20 years, your new ops with lifts are Mt Bohemia, Silverton and Cherry Peak. All tiny operations in each of their own way. EDIT: Add Moonlight / Tamarack - not small.

[Bunion 2020]

You are forgetting the Mega attempts- Moonlight Basin (RIP 2003-2013) and Tamarack (2004-2009) although Tamarack is said to be rising Phoenix like from the ashes with a new master plan. https://tamarackidaho.com/tamarack-land-expansion

[goldenboy]

Yeah, it's hard to imagine a brand new resort on FS lands. The only way would be if a local community was down on their luck (dying mining or timber town?) and 100% behind it, but even then, I doubt it. Not to mention the expense- those 10th mountain guys that opened so many resorts after WW2 weren't THAT rich. Now it feels like you have to be a billionaire for a full fledged resort, as opposed to something like Silverton.

I think the most likely thing to happen is the re-opening of resorts that were shuttered. Like Iron Mountain aka Silver Basin near Kirkwood, for example. I would think the environment hurdles would be much easier to overcome.

https://snowbrains.com/the-abandoned-iron-mountain-ca/

That's definitely happening. Cuchara, in southern CO is semi-reopening this year, and expects to turn lifts again next winter.

There is a new place being opened up just south of Snowbasin (Ogden) and north of Salt Lake City next year. It's all private though Wasatch Peaks Ranch

https://wprdevco.com/

Private seems to be the mostly likely way to go. Yellowstone club in '97 comes to mind, as does the Cimarron Club between CB and Tride.

While not private as far as guests, Bluebird Backcountry is on a private ranch. I believe much of Silverton is on mining claims.

[leroy jenkins]

Interesting to hear Silverton is on mining claims, I thought perhaps their success with the gubbment was possibly due to their smaller ecological footprint. You guys think that would matter, would future ski areas have any better luck with a more Silverton vision?

Of course opening new ski areas would be a much more attractive proposition if the number of skiers was increasing - instead of being a game of trying to get a bigger share of a market that isn't growing (well except for growing older).

The number of skiers isn't increasing? Do you have any data on that? Why does it seem like crowds get worse every year, even pre ikon?

[new yabyum]

Isn't the Pass busy enough as-is?

Where in God's name would you park?

[Bunion 2020]

The number of skiers isn't increasing? Do you have any data on that? Why does it seem like crowds get worse every year, even pre ikon?

The numbers are a bit misleading for last season due to Covid but were down by 10-15%.

Overall trends are that less entry level skiers are taking up skiing due to the costs etc. Current and future economic trends do not favor there being more skiers entering the sport.



https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Programs/G...9-1ec4cc4c9844

https://www.stylealtitude.com/the-fu...wboarding.html


IKON/EPIC have distorted or changed how and where people ski.

[Harry]

Keep thinking about the guy that was trying to build the bitterroot resort outside Missoula.

Yup, that one failed for numerous reasons. USFS had previously approved a lift up Lolo Peak, but that project went bust. Then when the new guy stepped up years later, the USFS was wavering on wether they would re-approve. But before USFS announced their decision, what really killed his project was the long flat runout to his private land that depended on snowmaking using water rights that he wanted to take away from area ranchers via eminent domain.

Key takeaway = in Montana, whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting.


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[ill-advised strategy]

Linking this thread, which contains a lot of wisdom about the viability of skiing as a business model:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ing?highlight=

[margotron]

I'm pretty sure if Vail bought snowbowl the management would be significantly improved.

Sad to say, but I’m into this. Would prefer Whitefish to buy however unlikely

[FortySixMac]

The numbers are a bit misleading for last season due to Covid but were down by 10-15%.

Overall trends are that less entry level skiers are taking up skiing due to the costs etc. Current and future economic trends do not favor there being more skiers entering the sport.



https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Programs/G...9-1ec4cc4c9844

https://www.stylealtitude.com/the-fu...wboarding.html


IKON/EPIC have distorted or changed how and where people ski.

Detrimental to the now-overused land that Ikon/VR ski resorts are located, incredibly nice for those skiing smaller mom&pop mountains.


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[hatchgreenchile]

Interesting to hear Silverton is on mining claims, I thought perhaps their success with the gubbment was possibly due to their smaller ecological footprint. You guys think that would matter, would future ski areas have any better luck with a more Silverton vision?

It's a patchwork of claims and BLM access. They had some disputes early in their tenure from the other claims in the area.

Their whole model is a quality > quantity, and they charge accordingly. They might get what, <25K skier days annually? That's a Saturday at Vail! Most importantly, they have the expert terrain and snowfall to make their model work (also, the heli acreage), but you'd need the stars to align to find a similar location. It's kind of shocking that Velocity Basin went without a lift until 2002.

[singlecross]

I would also recommend reading "The Story of Modern Skiing" by John Fry to get a sense of historical perspective regarding ski area/resort development and challenges. Great book.

Edit to add: Not likely but I could maybe see the revitalization of a ski club scene with small lodges open to members that would access skin-to backcountry terrain with no lifts and minimal services... grab and go lunch service and possibly ski patrol/snow safety staff.

[Bunion 2020]

I would also recommend reading "The Story of Modern Skiing" by John Fry to get a sense of historical perspective regarding ski area/resort development and challenges. Great book.

Edit to add: Not likely but I could maybe see the revitalization of a ski club scene with small lodges open to members that would access skin-to backcountry terrain with no lifts and minimal services... grab and go lunch service and possibly ski patrol/snow safety staff.

This is the most likely scenario I could see as well. Lots of terrain that requires little to no Avi mitigation, basic meadow skipping to around 30 Deg. and access to much more advanced terrain for those willing to work for it. That seems like the kind of operation the USFS would be more apt to look at favorably.


Be great if a ski manufacturer could develop a decent skiing, short/fat fish scale ski & boot and binding combination.

[XXX-er]

The probelem in BC goes all the way back to 1776 when George III decided they should pay the FN instead of trying to kill them all and so they did pay alot of them off, so you will hear first peoples refer to theselves as yada tribe from treaty 7 or whatever

doesnt happen in BC cuz by the time they got all the way to the left coast the Brits had run out of money or ethics or whatever and SO all of BC is unceded lands could be a real probelm trying do anything

[Toadman]

The time to talk about new ski areas was during the Trump years. If Trump could get National Monument status repealed, sell off oil, gas, timber and mining rights on fed lands; then anyone who wanted to open up a new ski resort on fed land could have gotten it done.

[toast2266]

Sad to say, but I’m into this. Would prefer Whitefish to buy however unlikely

I think you have an overly rosy view of the capabilities of the management at whitefish.

[yeahman]

Seems like Snowbowl might be a good candidate for the Bridger Bowl "community owned" model.