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  1. #126
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    Dec 2003
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    Seattle
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I'd gladly pay more to ski less crowded areas. I can pay more than the average person. There are plenty of people who can pay a lot more than I can and would be happy to see me gone. My point is if resorts start going down the road of limiting access by raising prices there's no telling where it ends and a lot of us may be left out. One way or another though the future belongs to passes. Given the number of bad years CA has had in the last 50 years there would have been a few major resorts gone out of business if they had to rely on day tickets.
    There's a better balance to be had between the current pile it high and sell it cheap model and making everywhere a Yellowstone club.

    The only way their current model works is to cram more people into a finite resource.

    Yes, pass income creates a buffer against bad seasons and low day sales. But on the other hand I've had a season pass renewed for free after a particularly bad year here in the past.

    The next step for the mega passes? Limiting how many days you can ski on your Epikonic "season" pass at your local hill. Or sticking with a Covid-19 reservation system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  2. #127
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    Dec 2004
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    16,058
    Also keep in mind there is the factor of the amount of $$$ brought in from pass/ticket sales and all the other ways that a Resort uses to pry that $$$ from peoples wallets and then there is what it costs to put up the circus tent and take it back down.

    While there seem to be lots of asses on the seats I wonder about those $$$.

    The next step for the mega passes? Limiting how many days you can ski on your Epikonic "season" pass at your local hill. Or sticking with a Covid-19 reservation system.
    I would add in that for the Ikon/Epics, put a cap on every damn day and make it a higher cap on weekends.

    I rode chairs with a bunch of people today, maybe 20-22 and only 2-3 were local passholders. The rest were sheepish Ikon passholders and all very nice folks. A day ticket today was in the $180 range, they had no reason to explain/apologize to me.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  3. #128
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    6,681
    Quote Originally Posted by JONG SLAUGHTER View Post
    THE REASON THERE WON'T BE ANY MORE NEW SKI AREAS IS BECAUSE OF ALL YOU -GREENPEACE IN DRAG- DUMB CUNTS SUPPORT HUGE OPPOSITION GROUPS. SO WHY YOU MORONS WAIT IN LINE FOR AN HOUR ON YOUR NEXT POWDER DAY WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER POW STICKER WEARING D-BAGS, UNDERSTAND YOU ARE THE REASON YOU'RE NOT AT A NEW SILVERTON TYPE AREA INSTEAD. YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE MORONS THAT LIVE IN OLD MINING TOWNS TURNED SKI TOWNS THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT MINING. YOUR "SHIT DON'T STINK" ATTITUDES DON'T COVER UP THE SMELL OF SHIT.
    Oh hell yeah, this thread is going places.

  4. #129
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    In the swamp
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    8,420
    Quote Originally Posted by JONG SLAUGHTER View Post
    THE REASON THERE WON'T BE ANY MORE NEW SKI AREAS IS BECAUSE OF ALL YOU -GREENPEACE IN DRAG- DUMB CUNTS SUPPORT HUGE OPPOSITION GROUPS. SO WHY YOU MORONS WAIT IN LINE FOR AN HOUR ON YOUR NEXT POWDER DAY WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER POW STICKER WEARING D-BAGS, UNDERSTAND YOU ARE THE REASON YOU'RE NOT AT A NEW SILVERTON TYPE AREA INSTEAD. YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE MORONS THAT LIVE IN OLD MINING TOWNS TURNED SKI TOWNS THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT MINING. YOUR "SHIT DON'T STINK" ATTITUDES DON'T COVER UP THE SMELL OF SHIT.
    Yes!!! Jong Slaughter is back?!

  5. #130
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    9,300ft
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    Fuck Yea
    JS is right, too.

    We even have a poster bragging about how enviro groups can paralyze any project on FS land with endless fucking challenges until an acceptable compromise is reached. Acceptable to whom? Well, guess what? Everyone who makes a challenge thinks their challenge, or at least the cause supported by the spurious objection, is legit.

    The system is SEVERELY fucked up and imbalanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #131
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    truckee
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    16,635
    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    There's a better balance to be had between the current pile it high and sell it cheap model and making everywhere a Yellowstone club.

    The only way their current model works is to cram more people into a finite resource.

    Yes, pass income creates a buffer against bad seasons and low day sales. But on the other hand I've had a season pass renewed for free after a particularly bad year here in the past.

    The next step for the mega passes? Limiting how many days you can ski on your Epikonic "season" pass at your local hill. Or sticking with a Covid-19 reservation system.
    I'm not saying the way it is is the way it should be, just that it's the way it is. We can type all we want about how we'd like things to be but no one at Vail and Alterra is listening.

    As far as environmental groups being the problem--or solution depending on your point of view, that may have been true in the past. Mineral King, Coldstream, Independence Lake are all examples here. But get rid of the environmental groups today and no one is building any new ski resorts.

  7. #132
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    Nov 2007
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    Šguila
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    1,067
    Don't have any idea how to increase the supply side, but the demand is definitely here. Denver, SLC, JH, anywhere in California?, Seattle, Portland - any snowy area within 2 hours of these places seems like it would have a strong chance of success,

  8. #133
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
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    Call-A-Rad-Bro
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I'm not saying the way it is is the way it should be, just that it's the way it is. We can type all we want about how we'd like things to be but no one at Vail and Alterra is listening.
    Our typing may not matter at all to Vail Resorts and Alterra, but the purchasing decisions we make absolutely do make a big difference to these corporations. That's my point. We do have some leverage in this situation; we just have to decide to use it and stop being sheep who just willingly lap up whatever slop is offered and act like its filet mignon. It's easy to blame the big corps, but they aren't going anywhere and will always follow the $. If the money and the demand was in offering a quality product over mass access to hordes of people, the money-hungry corps would go where the money is. The only thing that motivates profit-driven businesses is money. Resorts' money comes from skiers. That is where the focus should be if we want to reverse what is a depressing trend.

  9. #134
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    Oct 2008
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    Wenatchee
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Yeah, no. Jackson has massive lift lines on average. 4Ē days as well.

    Go read the Crystal thread and they were turning people away in early December due to crowds.

    Go look at Steamboat lift line pics.

    Head over to AZ and listen to the jabronis bitch.

    It is no longer just pow days, and that is the entire point of this thread.
    Thatís not my experience. Maybe people just like to bitch?

    Iím not a weekend skier so I donít see the crowds, weekdays are great.

    Comparing this season to the norm is also a bit lame, everything is busier.


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  10. #135
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Shredhead View Post
    Iím not so sure. Itís cyclical and prone thingís they canít control.
    I used to do business with an ultra rich Mexican industrialist. Really smart, savvy guy.
    He told me he never lost as much money as owning Ski Sunlight in Glenwood Springs. Same with Monarch.

    Somebody might be making money now, but they picked up the assets cheap.

    I donít see new developments making any money.
    I think it's the smaller resorts like Monarch that aren't making a ton of money. I would imagine that every vail resort (at least here in CO) is making a ton of money off of the tourists they bring in. Lodging, tickets, and food add up over a week. I think the profitability of a resort really comes down to how well they can keep people in their resort village spending money?

  11. #136
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    Nov 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeskiTrenchCarver View Post
    I think it's the smaller resorts like Monarch that aren't making a ton of money. I would imagine that every vail resort (at least here in CO) is making a ton of money off of the tourists they bring in. Lodging, tickets, and food add up over a week. I think the profitability of a resort really comes down to how well they can keep people in their resort village spending money?
    Absolutely, most of the extras have a much higher margin, than the actual skiing product.

    I was skiing with some Aspen Skico executives last week. They were thrilled that occupancy rates were approaching 50% at their hotels.
    Hotelís donít make money at 50 %.

  12. #137
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    9,890
    Recycling old ski areas seems to be your best bet here in CO but it is still a hudge undertaking.

    There was talk of reopening Stagecoach ski area south of Steamboat but apparently that fell though recently. A pretty good sized ski area that gets 300+ on average w/ north facing slopes. No exactly sure why it fell through.

    Other attempts in CO have been St Maryís outside of Idaho Springs, Squaw pass which is now Echo Mountain and amazingly still open, and they are currently working on Cuchara down in Huerfano county.

    I really miss Berthoud Pass ski area when it was open. Such a fun place w/ a good vibe and lots of snow. I think that area gets more skiers now than it ever did back when it was a ski area though. Sure would be nice to have some avalanche mitigation up there again.

    It seems like the USFS is also far more interested in allowing current ski areas expand than allowing new ones to open.

  13. #138
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    Dec 2008
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    Salida, CO
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    1,420
    Monarch has pass/ticket sales vs food, beverage and gift shop sales. The former addresses operations the latter profit. Their guests stay down in town and support that economy. Same with Sunlight. On weekends the parking lots are full but you won't wait in line near as long as at a mega. Week days are $$.

  14. #139
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    panhandle locdog
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    Turner Mountain Montana is a great blueprint for what should be scattered across the Cascades (and other ranges) many times over. Locally run smaller ski areas that are treated as a public benefit and a positive for the community.

    1.) some cut runs, lots of glading.
    2.) Small lodge and minimal infrastructure.
    3.)1 Riblet chair that accesses tons of great terrain and 2k vert of great skiing.
    4.)support from the local town, businesses and county.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn...ain_Ski_Resort

    https://www.skiturner.com/

  15. #140
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    Nov 2004
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    YetiMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredhead View Post
    Hotel’s don’t make money at 50 %.
    Not to seem hostile, but are you sure?

    Can I get a 2nd opinion? Paging Woodsy...

  16. #141
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    Oct 2008
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    Wenatchee
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier View Post
    Turner Mountain Montana is a great blueprint for what should be scattered across the Cascades (and other ranges) many times over. Locally run smaller ski areas that are treated as a public benefit and a positive for the community.

    1.) some cut runs, lots of glading.
    2.) Small lodge and minimal infrastructure.
    3.)1 Riblet chair that accesses tons of great terrain and 2k vert of great skiing.
    4.)support from the local town, businesses and county.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn...ain_Ski_Resort

    https://www.skiturner.com/
    Do they have respirators on loan for the asbestos?


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  17. #142
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    16,058
    Monarch has pass/ticket sales vs food, beverage and gift shop sales. The former addresses operations the latter profit. Their guests stay down in town and support that economy. Same with Sunlight. On weekends the parking lots are full but you won't wait in line near as long as at a mega. Week days are $$.
    Yep, a ski area, not a ski resort. Much better chance of this type of model being developed in this day & age.

    Turner Mountain Montana is a great blueprint for what should be scattered across the Cascades (and other ranges) many times over. Locally run smaller ski areas that are treated as a public benefit and a positive for the community.

    1.) some cut runs, lots of glading.
    2.) Small lodge and minimal infrastructure.
    3.)1 Riblet chair that accesses tons of great terrain and 2k vert of great skiing.
    4.)support from the local town, businesses and county.
    Same same.

    Keep the debt and overhead low and the product price reasonable. Bridger Bowl is that model taken to the extreme.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  18. #143
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    Jun 2007
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    Cruzing
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    Iím not gonna tell yall where I skied with no lines during ski week. But it can still happen.

  19. #144
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    Oct 2008
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    Wenatchee
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    So when do we talk about opening up some new ski areas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottime View Post
    Iím not gonna tell yall where I skied with no lines during ski week. But it can still happen.
    Happens everyday I ski. Iím lucky to have the flexibility to work weekends.

    I do feel for my friends that have to deal with the tourist hordes on weekends and holidays though. The only weekend Iíve skied this season was at Alta. It was crazy but it didnít bother me because I knew it was something I donít have to deal with normally.

    I agree that the future should be places like Turner and other small private ski areas. The experience is so much better than the typical zoo of resorts.


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  20. #145
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by TWA View Post
    Harley ever post on here but interesting topic that I have some good knowledge in. Skier numbers are flat for the most part. The large increase in ďbusyĒ mountains is because of the pass options these days. Makes access of more ski areas east. So while skier numbers might be flat, people are skiing more at more then just one resort. The influx of people to some regions is inflating crowding at some places (Wasatch especially). Money is also easy to come by for the ďaverageĒípeople. Meaning, people have more money these past few years then ever. So flying to SLC, Jackson, Steamboat to ski a few times a year is no big deal.

    On resort expansion, so hard to have another ďlargeĒ resort come out of nowhere. Like mentioned above, it would have to be a private land deal close to big city. I live in Utah. I know of 2 places within an hour of SLC that could host a new build of a large 3,000-5,000 acre resort with sustained snowfall. But buildout costs would exceed $250m. Could some billionaire yuppie do it? Maybe? Also build out time frame of something like this is 5 years minimum.

    As to Wasatch Peaks Ranch mentioned above. That was one of the last big private parcels around. 12,000 acres or something. 45min from SLC. Sold for like $40m. That ski area is green lit. I think they paused last summer in Covid but will start this spring. Poma has the lift contracts. But ďweĒ will not ski there. This is Yellowstone club 2.0.

    Finally, again here in UT. Mayflower is still doing something. Kinda backside of Deer Valley to keep it simple. Horrible aspect and elevation. I know base area construction is back up and going. Do not know about lift contracts. Ex Vail big mucky muck got hired on to oversee. But this is a ďresort/real estateĒ with a ski area attached. My opinion on this project - dumpster fire.
    Wasatch Peaks sold for way more than $40m. 19/20 season they have been working around the clock. Cutting roads, ski runs. The dust cloud this summer was impressive and SAD.

  21. #146
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    NY
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    641
    Quote Originally Posted by French Pizza View Post
    Detrimental to the now-overused land that Ikon/VR ski resorts are located, incredibly nice for those skiing smaller mom&pop mountains.
    Maybe not so good for Mom and Pop though. In the long run.

  22. #147
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Name Redacted View Post
    It seems like the USFS is also far more interested in allowing current ski areas expand than allowing new ones to open.
    I would think the $$ involved these days for permits/environmental impact studies/ etc. (On top of building the actual ski area) would be fairly prohibitive, especially for a mom & pop operation.


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  23. #148
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    Oct 2005
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    Basalt
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    I can solve this problem. Simply remove Highlands from the Ikon pass...then I am happy and all is good.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  24. #149
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    Dec 2011
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    PNW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Fuck Yea
    JS is right, too.

    We even have a poster bragging about how enviro groups can paralyze any project on FS land with endless fucking challenges until an acceptable compromise is reached. Acceptable to whom? Well, guess what? Everyone who makes a challenge thinks their challenge, or at least the cause supported by the spurious objection, is legit.

    The system is SEVERELY fucked up and imbalanced.
    closed minded and biased much?

  25. #150
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
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    Los Angeles/Mammoth
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    965
    Quote Originally Posted by JONG SLAUGHTER View Post
    THE REASON THERE WON'T BE ANY MORE NEW SKI AREAS IS BECAUSE OF ALL YOU -GREENPEACE IN DRAG- DUMB CUNTS SUPPORT HUGE OPPOSITION GROUPS. SO WHY YOU MORONS WAIT IN LINE FOR AN HOUR ON YOUR NEXT POWDER DAY WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER POW STICKER WEARING D-BAGS, UNDERSTAND YOU ARE THE REASON YOU'RE NOT AT A NEW SILVERTON TYPE AREA INSTEAD. YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE MORONS THAT LIVE IN OLD MINING TOWNS TURNED SKI TOWNS THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT MINING. YOUR "SHIT DON'T STINK" ATTITUDES DON'T COVER UP THE SMELL OF SHIT.
    JONG SLAUGHTER for Commissioner of TGR.

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