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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Missoula, MT
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    21,339
    Quote Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Vail bought snowbowl the management would be significantly improved.
    True, but that's not saying much.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    245
    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    The demand clearly exists for more ski terrain, when do we get it?
    usually around memorial day near the wy/mt border

  3. #28
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Beautiful BC
    Posts
    2,856
    Big White (Kelowna, BC) is working through approval for their long term master plan (can they use the word "master"?). It would double the size of the resort. It's shockingly complex since every stakeholder has input and has to be respected. This would include forestry, mining, hunting, outdoor recreation, first nations, locals and on and on. Plus all the environmentals (streams, rivers, roads, waste management, water...)

    This is an update to an existing plan and has been going on for years.
    If you have a problem & think that someone else is going to solve it for you then you have two problems.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
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    16,194
    So many classic resorts were started by avid skiers with a vision. Hard to see that happening now, even if the FS and the market allowed it. Unless Troy Caldwell can manage to finally cash in on his little piece of paradise, but that will depend on Squaw building it's gondola.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    15,855
    Ski Areas? Or Ski Resorts?

    Too little $$$ in Ski Areas unless you have someplace that has the terrain, gets a lot of reliable snow, has decent access and a population base within 1-2 hrs. Most of those possible sites no longer exist.

    Too much impact from Ski Resorts, only people interested are not skiers.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    So many classic resorts were started by avid skiers with a vision. Hard to see that happening now, even if the FS and the market allowed it. Unless Troy Caldwell can manage to finally cash in on his little piece of paradise, but that will depend on Squaw building it's gondola.
    Might be possible with a short term loan from Rob Katz.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    64

    So when do we talk about opening up some new ski areas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Ski Areas? Or Ski Resorts?

    Too little $$$ in Ski Areas unless you have someplace that has the terrain, gets a lot of reliable snow, has decent access and a population base within 1-2 hrs. Most of those possible sites no longer exist.

    Too much impact from Ski Resorts, only people interested are not skiers.
    Donít go changiní Bull Mountain.


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    Last edited by French Pizza; 02-13-2021 at 08:17 AM. Reason: Spelling

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    summit county
    Posts
    432
    Keep thinking about the guy that was trying to build the bitterroot resort outside Missoula.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    GNARvada
    Posts
    3,514
    The premier sites were built up long ago, and much of the remaining sites with favorable snow + terrain + aspect are locked up under NPS or Wilderness.
    Never say never, but I think mega resorts buildouts are done in the lower 48. Small to medium buildouts still could happen (ex. look at Kendall Mtn plan, which would take a Kicking Horse / Revelstoke path)
    In the past 20 years, your new ops with lifts are Mt Bohemia, Silverton and Cherry Peak. All tiny operations in each of their own way. EDIT: Add Moonlight / Tamarack - not small.
    Last edited by hatchgreenchile; 02-13-2021 at 09:08 AM.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    15,855
    You are forgetting the Mega attempts- Moonlight Basin (RIP 2003-2013) and Tamarack (2004-2009) although Tamarack is said to be rising Phoenix like from the ashes with a new master plan. https://tamarackidaho.com/tamarack-land-expansion
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    cb, co
    Posts
    4,079
    Yeah, it's hard to imagine a brand new resort on FS lands. The only way would be if a local community was down on their luck (dying mining or timber town?) and 100% behind it, but even then, I doubt it. Not to mention the expense- those 10th mountain guys that opened so many resorts after WW2 weren't THAT rich. Now it feels like you have to be a billionaire for a full fledged resort, as opposed to something like Silverton.

    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    I think the most likely thing to happen is the re-opening of resorts that were shuttered. Like Iron Mountain aka Silver Basin near Kirkwood, for example. I would think the environment hurdles would be much easier to overcome.

    https://snowbrains.com/the-abandoned-iron-mountain-ca/
    That's definitely happening. Cuchara, in southern CO is semi-reopening this year, and expects to turn lifts again next winter.

    Quote Originally Posted by NBABUCKS1 View Post
    There is a new place being opened up just south of Snowbasin (Ogden) and north of Salt Lake City next year. It's all private though Wasatch Peaks Ranch

    https://wprdevco.com/
    Private seems to be the mostly likely way to go. Yellowstone club in '97 comes to mind, as does the Cimarron Club between CB and Tride.

    While not private as far as guests, Bluebird Backcountry is on a private ranch. I believe much of Silverton is on mining claims.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    sandy, sl,ut
    Posts
    8,062
    Interesting to hear Silverton is on mining claims, I thought perhaps their success with the gubbment was possibly due to their smaller ecological footprint. You guys think that would matter, would future ski areas have any better luck with a more Silverton vision?


    Quote Originally Posted by nickinbc View Post

    Of course opening new ski areas would be a much more attractive proposition if the number of skiers was increasing - instead of being a game of trying to get a bigger share of a market that isn't growing (well except for growing older).
    The number of skiers isn't increasing? Do you have any data on that? Why does it seem like crowds get worse every year, even pre ikon?
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Driggs
    Posts
    429
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    Isn't the Pass busy enough as-is?
    Where in God's name would you park?

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    15,855
    The number of skiers isn't increasing? Do you have any data on that? Why does it seem like crowds get worse every year, even pre ikon?
    The numbers are a bit misleading for last season due to Covid but were down by 10-15%.

    Overall trends are that less entry level skiers are taking up skiing due to the costs etc. Current and future economic trends do not favor there being more skiers entering the sport.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot_2021-02-13 Active skiers snowboarders United States 1996-2018 Statista.png 
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    https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Programs/G...9-1ec4cc4c9844

    https://www.stylealtitude.com/the-fu...wboarding.html


    IKON/EPIC have distorted or changed how and where people ski.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Big Sky/Moonlight Basin
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    10,592
    Quote Originally Posted by Leshphilling77 View Post
    Keep thinking about the guy that was trying to build the bitterroot resort outside Missoula.
    Yup, that one failed for numerous reasons. USFS had previously approved a lift up Lolo Peak, but that project went bust. Then when the new guy stepped up years later, the USFS was wavering on wether they would re-approve. But before USFS announced their decision, what really killed his project was the long flat runout to his private land that depended on snowmaking using water rights that he wanted to take away from area ranchers via eminent domain.

    Key takeaway = in Montana, whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting.


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    "Zee damn fat skis are ruining zee piste !" -Oscar Schevlin

    "Hike up your skirt and grow a dick you fucking crybaby" -what Bunion said to Harry at the top of The Headwaters

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    YetiMan
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    12,163
    Linking this thread, which contains a lot of wisdom about the viability of skiing as a business model:
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ing?highlight=

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tahoe>Missoula>Fort Collins
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    1,582
    Quote Originally Posted by The Artist Formerly Known as Leavenworth Skier View Post
    I'm pretty sure if Vail bought snowbowl the management would be significantly improved.
    Sad to say, but Iím into this. Would prefer Whitefish to buy however unlikely


  18. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    The numbers are a bit misleading for last season due to Covid but were down by 10-15%.

    Overall trends are that less entry level skiers are taking up skiing due to the costs etc. Current and future economic trends do not favor there being more skiers entering the sport.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot_2021-02-13 Active skiers snowboarders United States 1996-2018 Statista.png 
Views:	185 
Size:	77.9 KB 
ID:	362695

    https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Programs/G...9-1ec4cc4c9844

    https://www.stylealtitude.com/the-fu...wboarding.html


    IKON/EPIC have distorted or changed how and where people ski.
    Detrimental to the now-overused land that Ikon/VR ski resorts are located, incredibly nice for those skiing smaller mom&pop mountains.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    GNARvada
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    3,514
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    Interesting to hear Silverton is on mining claims, I thought perhaps their success with the gubbment was possibly due to their smaller ecological footprint. You guys think that would matter, would future ski areas have any better luck with a more Silverton vision?
    It's a patchwork of claims and BLM access. They had some disputes early in their tenure from the other claims in the area.

    Their whole model is a quality > quantity, and they charge accordingly. They might get what, <25K skier days annually? That's a Saturday at Vail! Most importantly, they have the expert terrain and snowfall to make their model work (also, the heli acreage), but you'd need the stars to align to find a similar location. It's kind of shocking that Velocity Basin went without a lift until 2002.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    DownEast
    Posts
    1,095
    I would also recommend reading "The Story of Modern Skiing" by John Fry to get a sense of historical perspective regarding ski area/resort development and challenges. Great book.

    Edit to add: Not likely but I could maybe see the revitalization of a ski club scene with small lodges open to members that would access skin-to backcountry terrain with no lifts and minimal services... grab and go lunch service and possibly ski patrol/snow safety staff.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    15,855
    Quote Originally Posted by singlecross View Post
    I would also recommend reading "The Story of Modern Skiing" by John Fry to get a sense of historical perspective regarding ski area/resort development and challenges. Great book.

    Edit to add: Not likely but I could maybe see the revitalization of a ski club scene with small lodges open to members that would access skin-to backcountry terrain with no lifts and minimal services... grab and go lunch service and possibly ski patrol/snow safety staff.
    This is the most likely scenario I could see as well. Lots of terrain that requires little to no Avi mitigation, basic meadow skipping to around 30 Deg. and access to much more advanced terrain for those willing to work for it. That seems like the kind of operation the USFS would be more apt to look at favorably.


    Be great if a ski manufacturer could develop a decent skiing, short/fat fish scale ski & boot and binding combination.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    22,703
    The probelem in BC goes all the way back to 1776 when George III decided they should pay the FN instead of trying to kill them all and so they did pay alot of them off, so you will hear first peoples refer to theselves as yada tribe from treaty 7 or whatever

    doesnt happen in BC cuz by the time they got all the way to the left coast the Brits had run out of money or ethics or whatever and SO all of BC is unceded lands could be a real probelm trying do anything
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,045
    The time to talk about new ski areas was during the Trump years. If Trump could get National Monument status repealed, sell off oil, gas, timber and mining rights on fed lands; then anyone who wanted to open up a new ski resort on fed land could have gotten it done.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
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    10,186
    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    Sad to say, but Iím into this. Would prefer Whitefish to buy however unlikely
    I think you have an overly rosy view of the capabilities of the management at whitefish.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Last Best City in the Last Best Place
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    3,985
    Seems like Snowbowl might be a good candidate for the Bridger Bowl "community owned" model.

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