Wolves are rad.

[gretch6364]

You are really undermining your credibility there buddy.

You think there is another way to restore all of the habitat humans have destroyed and return all animals to their natural ranges so they can control their own populations?

I would love to here it...buddy


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[BmillsSkier]

You sure?



This is based on feelings?



I'm not really a fan either. But, admittedly, I know very little about it.



Again, you've based this on emotion and things you don't know.

Fair points. I may have overreacted a bit, but I loathe the all too common stereotype I see of wolf hunters - fat, using dogs, bait, traps, etc. and not one bit concerned about preservation. They just like the manly post they make with the kill online.

I have no overly romanticized notions about wildlife, wolves or otherwise. Don’t think I’ve said anything to the opposite so far but I’m sure someone will point it out if so.

[char_]

You think there is another way to restore all of the habitat humans have destroyed and return all animals to their natural ranges so they can control their own populations?

I would love to here it...buddy


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Yeah, ok, that’s what we are talking about here, sure.

[gretch6364]

Yeah, ok, that’s what we are talking about here, sure.

That is literally EXACTLY what I said when you quoted me. The two alternatives for controlling the wolf population are humans killing them, or setting their native ranges, along with all their prey, back to what it was before we destroyed their habitat.

How else are you going to control the wolf population? Send them to Mars? Would you rather hunters buy licenses, funding conservation, and kill a quota set by local biologist, or pay people in helicopters to shoot them and let their bodies rot?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[char_]

That is literally EXACTLY what I said when you quoted me. The two alternatives for controlling the wolf population are humans killing them, or setting their native ranges, along with all their prey, back to what it was before we destroyed their habitat.

How else are you going to control the wolf population? Send them to Mars? Would you rather hunters buy licenses, funding conservation, and kill a quota set by local biologist, or pay people in helicopters to shoot them and let their bodies rot?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Really? You don’t think wolf populations could naturally reach some sort of balance with the existing ecosystem (including the human built environment) unless we kill them?

FWIW - I think managed hunts are fine, I’m just not buying your black or white argument about how to manage them.

[gretch6364]

Really? You don’t think wolf populations could naturally reach some sort of balance with the existing ecosystem (including the human built environment) unless we kill them?

FWIW - I think managed hunts are fine, I’m just not buying your black or white argument about how to manage them.

Nope...they won’t manage themselves. This has been proven with many North American predators. Shit...look NZ and their predator issues. While pretty much all are non-native, a predator at the very top of the food chain will breed and kill until the collapse of their food source...then they themselves collapse. If you want this boom and bust cycle...then I guess they can self regulate their population?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[BCMtnHound]

Land management descisions are incredible complex, and not getting any easier. Everyone has an opinion about what they want their version of wilderness to be, but how is it determined which vision takes precidence? How are the losers compensated for their loss? It is so much more than just predator-prey relationships now. Hell, the vast majority of hunting in North America is not tied to sustenance anymore, but for some form of pleasure. More than half my food in my fridge over the year comes from the wilderness or by my own hand, but I would not consider myself reliant on a sustenance lifestyle - it's a choice I am privileged to make. And the poor here can not afford to forage or hunt, so they can't claim a sustenance requirement either.
My ability to participate in society is directly linked to resource extraction in the backcountry. Do I have more say about the state of the wilderness than an urban person several degrees removed from that industry (but still are dependant on it) but has a deep rooted desire on what their vision of wildland management is? How do we address the interface folk, especially with the exodus brought about by COVID, and their unique perspective? Sprawl is very real and a huge impact of ecosystem fragmentation, even before the current state of affairs.

It isn't a simple conversation, and the science is very 'soft' on so many aspects of it. Again, there are more and more people on the planet, each with their own needs and desires, and we can't even come to agreement on how we as Homo spp. are to live together, let alone how our societies are best to interact with the natural environment that we are trying ever harder to separate ourselves from (even if we mostly deny that reality). I think there are going to be some very hard choices in the next few decades on how and where we live, if we want to protect the integrity of the natural environment. Property and rights will be infringed and the price will not be cheap. And based on UNDRIP and its application at both the state and local level, many of us privileged folk will not have right of first refusal when those decisions are made. We are definitely cursed to be living in interesting times.

And the wolves would laugh at our conundrum I suspect.

[BCMtnHound]

Really? You don’t think wolf populations could naturally reach some sort of balance with the existing ecosystem (including the human built environment) unless we kill them?

FWIW - I think managed hunts are fine, I’m just not buying your black or white argument about how to manage them.

Nope...they won’t manage themselves. This has been proven with many North American predators. Shit...look NZ and their predator issues. While pretty much all are non-native, a predator at the very top of the food chain will breed and kill until the collapse of their food source...then they themselves collapse. If you want this boom and bust cycle...then I guess they can self regulate their population?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Neither of these arguements are correct. The biggest influence that prevents 'balance' is humans. With regards to wolves, they will self regulate given time, but we aren't that patient. Usually the massive boom and bust cycles we are most familair with are held by insects and rodents. Higher order herbivores and their predators are not so aggressive in their popluation dynamics.

[The Reverend Floater]

Neither of these arguements are correct. The biggest influence that prevents 'balance' is humans. With regards to wolves, they will self regulate given time, but we aren't that patient. Usually the massive boom and bust cycles we are most familair with are held by insects and rodents. Higher order herbivores and their predators are not so aggressive in their popluation dynamics.

Self regulate how? Killing off competition and depleting food sources until they can't survive? Disease? The Octagon? You're not wrong but that's like saying we don't need to regulate anything because it'll ultimately sort itself out. Like CO2 emissions or nuclear waste.

[BCMtnHound]

Self regulate how? Killing off competition and depleting food sources until they can't survive? Disease? The Octagon? You're not wrong but that's like saying we don't need to regulate anything because it'll ultimately sort itself out. Like CO2 emissions or nuclear waste.

I'm not saying it will ultimately sort itself out cause we can't let it. The interface is too large, for both rural residential and agriculture interests. It bleeds over and we tend to wield the hammer rather aggressively. Litter size is very dependant on late winter hunting success, but those wolves are very smart and highly adaptable to alternate prey like cattle, sheep, and fido/felix. So it takes time for the pack to naturally decline. We've seen that in BC - we've had several years (over a decade now in several places) of low moose populations, but the wolf population hasn't dropped significantly in comparison. And the ranchers are not happy, but politics are against them more now that say 50 yrs ago. We also facilitate the predator movement due to our activities - plowed roads, sled trails, etc. so their available range is much larger. Again, not simple, and yes, because of our influence, wolf hunts/culls are likely necessary to obtain short term population control, but long term management is still elusive cause of their adaptability to a predation source they've never had before the white man came to kill them.

[gretch6364]

The grizzly bear is my soul animal. They a beautiful, wild and would never hurt anyone. We should release a bunch into the flatirons near Boulder.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[char_]

Neither of these arguements are correct. The biggest influence that prevents 'balance' is humans. With regards to wolves, they will self regulate given time, but we aren't that patient. Usually the massive boom and bust cycles we are most familair with are held by insects and rodents. Higher order herbivores and their predators are not so aggressive in their popluation dynamics.

That’s my point. Their population would self regulate if left alone, we just wouldn’t like the results necessarily.

Not killing wolves doesn’t mean you have to spend billions (trillions?) restoring their habitat. The predator prey cycle is still a thing right?

It’s not black and white, it is a huge shade of gray.

[char_]

There are some good alternative ways to manage wolf populations suggested in the last few posts that don’t involve hunting wolves.

Habitat modifications or reductions.

Management of food supplies, ie other game populations and reduced access to livestock.

Intentional introduction of disease.

Just imagine, an entire range of management opportunities that don’t involve hunting wolves, massive restoration of habitat and reduction of human populations.

Weird. It’s like there is an entire field of scientific knowledge that could be applied.

[gretch6364]

Yes...instead of collecting money from hunters that we can use for conservation...let’s spend a whole lot of money “intentionally introducing a disease” to wolf populations...brilliant idea char

Or...we could kill off all their food sources and starve them.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[wendigo]

The most rad thing about wolves is the strangely intense emotions they elicit from people. It typically is presented as either "kill them all" or "hug them all", rational thought on this topic is most rare indeed.

[char_]

Yes...instead of collecting money from hunters that we can use for conservation...let’s spend a whole lot of money “intentionally introducing a disease” to wolf populations...brilliant idea char


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

I mean you are the one suggesting that if we don’t shoot them we have to spend trillions to restore habitat and reduce the human population.

My only point is that there is a huge range of management options before you ever got to that point if tomorrow Congress said “no more wolf hunting”.

[BmillsSkier]

The most rad thing about wolves is the strangely intense emotions they elicit from people. It typically is presented as either "kill them all" or "hug them all", rational thought on this topic is most rare indeed.

That is pretty rad. They’re stronger than they probably realize.

[gretch6364]

I mean you are the one suggesting that if we don’t shoot them we have to spend trillions to restore habitat and reduce the human population.

My only point is that there is a huge range of management options before you ever got to that point if tomorrow Congress said “no more wolf hunting”.

Shoot SOME of them...seems a bit more humane than giving them diseases and starving them...lol


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[liv2ski]

If I am the wolf, the last thing I want is some dumb ass human making decisions for me. Go shoot your own over populated areas up if you need to get your killing on you fucking fucktards.

[gretch6364]

If I am the wolf, the last thing I want is some dumb ass human making decisions for me. Go shoot your own over populated areas up if you need to get your killing on you fucking fucktards.

Maybe the wolves should be smarter and invent guns to defend themselves...fucktard wolves


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[liv2ski]

Maybe you should put yours in your mouth.

[gretch6364]

Maybe you should put yours in your mouth.

Maybe you should come make me...ski off? Loser dies?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[liv2ski]

Pffft, go fuck yourself. I don't waste my time with shit heads like you. Responding to you is a waste of my time.

[gretch6364]

Pffft, go fuck yourself. I don't waste my time with shit heads like you. Responding to you is a waste of my time.

What will I do without your brilliant retorts?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[dtown]

That is pretty rad. They’re stronger than they probably realize.

This...wolf management is not actually about the wolves themselves, it’s the economic impact on the environment in which they live. People who aren’t dependent on a certain lifestyle (rural) think they are awesome but generally don’t know shit about them. Ranchers and certain conservation groups hate them cause they cost them money.

At the end of the day, my POV is the wolves and prey would balance themselves out but the lobbyists on each side of the argument aren’t willing to wait that long. Short term, it will cost hunting, state DNR and ranching too much money for the potential long term benefit, but I couldn’t quantify what that is.

Have been xc skiing several times in N WI the past few years, have seen wolves and head is always on a swivel. Cool animals for sure, way too much in common with my dog to shoot bit I’m not a deer Hunter.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums