Millcreek Canyon UT - 4 fatalities

[MakersTeleMark]

Posting avi on Internet before skiing gets avi.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/

I'll call it out. They were young dipshits. Flame away, I can handle it.

And age really has nothing to do with their decision.

[MTT]

Top of the page. You seem to lose your filters later in the evening.

[skifishbum]

Posting avi on Internet before skiing gets avi.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/

I'll call it out. They were young dipshits. Flame away, I can handle it.

And age really has nothing to do with their decision.

i dont think you know them well enough to pass that fucked up judgement
take an e break burner asshole

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Posting avi on Internet before skiing gets avi.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/

I'll call it out. They were young dipshits. Flame away, I can handle it.

And age really has nothing to do with their decision.

That’s a bit harsh. I would say it’s more likely hubris. Young, strong and some “success” in the backcountry. We’ve all been there at some point in our life.

It’s easy to see the trap they set for themselves, it’s why we need to be vigilant and disciplined in the backcountry if the ultimate goal is to return home.


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[glademaster]

I have to say that the second pic with slope angles looks pretty benign from that perspective

I'm still amazed there are people here who can look at photos of that terrain and say "gee, that looks pretty benign to me." It looks like a prime avalanche starting zone. There's a 35+ degree convex roll at the top of the open slope, for fucks sake.

Nothing about the terrain looks benign, and that's without even seeing the on-the-ground signs like flagged and scarred trees. To state that it does is hubris, ignorance, or a combination of the two.

[Kinnikinnick]

Lots of people love to say that it is possible to safely tour in periods of high or considerable hazard. I believe that to be true as well.

At the same time lots of people will say that it is unwise to attempt to ski avalanche terrain in periods of high and considerable hazard.
.

You’re right that its possible to tour, just not on or under avalanche terrain IMO


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[peace_coast]

I'm still amazed there are people here who can look at photos of that terrain and say "gee, that looks pretty benign to me." It looks like a prime avalanche starting zone. There's a 35+ degree convex roll at the top of the open slope, for fucks sake.

Nothing about the terrain looks benign, and that's without even seeing the on-the-ground signs like flagged and scarred trees. To state that it does is hubris, ignorance or combination of the two.

Not arguing that it isn't avalanche terrain or that they shouldn't have been there. But, after an accident, especially one involving people that should have known better, I think there's more to be gained in understanding why someone thought the wrong decision was the right decision, rather than just saying the decision was wrong.

This slide, along with many close calls in this spot over the years, suggests there's something about this terrain that lulls people that should know better into a false sense of security. IMO those things are:

1) Small slope - open part is about 600ft vertical
2) lower 1/2 of slope is mostly mellow, high 20s - approaching from bottom, you might not realize the error of your ways until it's too late
3) convex rollover is short, about 200ft vertical
4) The usual slide path is about 1/3 this size, this seems like more of a 20 year event. Anyone worth their salt would identify this as avalanche terrain standing at the top of it, but I think less people would have said "that's a slide path capable of producing a 1000' wide avalanche" prior to seeing these photos

Another standout to me re-reading the report is that they were trying to manage the risk by traversing the steeper rollover one at a time - but seems like they never discussed whether they should just eliminate the risk entirely by getting out of dodge... the lowest risk way to do a risky thing may still be an unacceptable level of overall risk.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Not arguing that it isn't avalanche terrain or that they shouldn't have been there. But, after an accident, especially one involving people that should have known better, I think there's more to be gained in understanding why someone thought the wrong decision was the right decision, rather than just saying the decision was wrong.

This slide, along with many close calls in this spot over the years, suggests there's something about this terrain that lulls people that should know better into a false sense of security. IMO those things are:

1) Small slope - open part is about 600ft vertical
2) lower 1/2 of slope is mostly mellow, high 20s - approaching from bottom, you might not realize the error of your ways until it's too late
3) convex rollover is short, about 200ft vertical
4) The usual slide path is about 1/3 this size, this seems like more of a 20 year event. Anyone worth their salt would identify this as avalanche terrain standing at the top of it, but I think less people would have said "that's a slide path capable of producing a 1000' wide avalanche" prior to seeing these photos

Another standout to me re-reading the report is that they were trying to manage the risk by traversing the steeper rollover one at a time - but seems like they never discussed whether they should just eliminate the risk entirely by getting out of dodge... the lowest risk way to do a risky thing may still be an unacceptable level of overall risk.

I think what you’re describing is hubris. We’re all guilty of that at some point. Trying to manage that hazard on that slope is simply that.

Hopefully we learn, these folks didn’t get the chance.


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[oldskibum]

Concisely put. Perhaps this conversation will open up willingness for thoughtful interaction on the hill. Specifically, the listening side. "Mentoring" where the skin meets the skinner, outside class environment.

Problems this year:
Shitty snowpack.
More folks than ever wanting to be in the backcountry.
Relatively new experts in the mix.
That haven't and prolly won't get mentored.
Need to work on the mentorship part, yes?

On a different note, one must speak forcefully if one feels that safety is at stake.
Even if you cannot exactly place where the alarm bells are coming from.
You are morally obligated though you wonder if you're being a pussy.

[Bunion 2020]

I think what you’re describing is hubris. We’re all guilty of that at some point. Trying to manage that hazard on that slope is simply that.

Hopefully we learn, these folks didn’t get the chance.


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Definition of hubris

: exaggerated pride or self-confidence

That seems a bit harsh to me.

Not arguing that it isn't avalanche terrain or that they shouldn't have been there. But, after an accident, especially one involving people that should have known better, I think there's more to be gained in understanding why someone thought the wrong decision was the right decision, rather than just saying the decision was wrong.

This, especially if we do want people to learn, including ourselves.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Well I think it fits. Trying to manage the snow problem that day on that slope seems like over confidence in their ability. I too am curious as to what led them to make that choice when everything told them not to.

I’m impressed with their rescue effort but they shouldn’t have been there.

Like I said, we’ve all probably put ourselves in similar positions and got lucky. They weren’t lucky.


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[Xover]

Disturbing read. Best accident report I personally have seen from the UAC in the 25+ years I've regularly followed the phone lines/site. I am curious if any in the party had air bags or avalungs and also most likely causes of death; seems UAC usually mentions these things nowadays in their reports ..... maybe just forgot with all the other well detailed and documented information?? Sfotex, no disrespect meant, but is that information you legally can and would be willing to share? Thanks.

[sfotex]

Disturbing read. Best accident report I personally have seen from the UAC in the 25+ years I've regularly followed the phone lines/site. I am curious if any in the party had air bags or avalungs and also most likely causes of death; seems UAC usually mentions these things nowadays in their reports ..... maybe just forgot with all the other well detailed and documented information?? Sfotex, no disrespect meant, but is that information you legally can and would be willing to share? Thanks.

Sure, I had a couple of additional details to the report I wanted to add if anyone is interested (these are from my personal perspective, possibly incomplete info, etc.blah blah) and nothing is meant to 2nd guess what was going on up there, they were busy saving lives, just what we were working with on on our end. And this is all from memory, I'm getting old, maybe I got it wrong, etc.

Saturday: We were called out just after noon on '5 people in avalanche resp to Alexander Basin for Stage'. On the drive there the DPS and LifeFlight helicopters were notified and were trying to get ETAs, etc. We had a Wasatch Backcountry Rescue (WBR) dog team staged at Brighton, and a 2nd team at Solitude. DPS was on the way back from Emery County, but LIfeFlight was on the way. We hadn't heard back from the initial caller (they had their hands full as we know) so we didn't know what was going on on the ground/snow. Once at the staging area we started a hasty ground/snowmobile team from the snow gates at Mill Creek, (Due to the avy conditions we sent up our AMGA guide, a ER doc/ex ski patroller, and Ryan that posts here occasionally) LiftFlight landed and picked up the WBR team and flew to the area. Due to the abundance of avalanches in the area. and the fact the party was in the trees digging their friends out, it took a while to pinpoint the scene. Once they located them and assessed scene safety they tried to find a safe place to land, but they couldn't find one. They decided they were going to have to hoist in rescuers, so they had to go back to Brighton to unload the dog (they can't hoist dogs..) and rig for a hoist. We also had a crew from Solitude drive to Mill Creek with extra probe poles, shovels, explosives, etc. in case this turned into probe lines, etc. We hadn't heard from the reporting party in awhile and we just didn't know how this was going to play out.
Once that all went down we were able to get rescuers on the ground via a LifeFlight hoist (about this time the reporting party called back and were able to get an update on how this unfolded) , and our hasty team soon after arrived on scene. DPS als came back from Emery County about this time too. We now knew what the situation was, and our focus shifted to getting the survivors out, one was hypothermic and injured (that was dug out), the other 3 were in mental shock at this time. We decided to have LifeFlight and DPS start hoisting people out. We got the last patient out around 4:30 and decided that is was getting starting to get late and we needed to get the rescuers out and save the recovery for the next day. When things shift from a rescue to a recovery you need to stop and reevaluate what's going on, risk levels, etc. We had DPS fly a Solitude snow safety member over the scene to determine if we needed to do any mitigation work before the recovery work took place. The victims beacons were turned off, we had the rescuers turn them back on before they left the site and skied out. We were pretty emotionally drained at this point.

Sunday:
We inserted 3 Salt Lake County SAR members and the Brighton WBR member from the day before onto the site with the DPS helicopter plus some gear. It looked like a war zone up there. Broken trees, gloves, skis, glasses tossed around. The lowest patient suffered trauma and was downhill of a tree, I suspect they clipped the tree and... The other 3 patients looked like they had gone to sleep...No airbags or avalungs noted. The UAC team showed up at this point and they started their work, We got the patients in body bags and started to move them to a point we could fly them out, There's this weird thing when you do work like this where you crack jokes with each other to lighten the mood. Not about the victims, but just general BS work shit. (There goes the boss man riding my ass, etc. type stuff). That probably sounds horrible, but you have to cope I guess. We got the victims out via helicopter and skied out with the UAC crew.

So I guess a few thoughts to throw into the 'god forbid I'm in a similar situation' (and this is just food for thought, I'm not going to 2nd guess anyone up there). If you call 911 , what resources do you need? (burials with beacons, we need ALS and people to dig), and will you be visible from the air/ground? Maybe some flagging on skis in the ground, or a gps location with 'you can't see us, fly here' . And I'm not 2nd guessing anyone up there, no way, just some observations. The caller also knew where they were, which was awesome, you wouldn't believe it but we get rescue calls sometimes and the party doesn't even know what canyon they are in.

[homemadesalsa]

Aww @sfotex thanks for your hard and difficult work. Appreciate the details. We discussed this accident and report in final class of my Level 1 this afternoon, very sobering and instructive. We could all see ourselves making this chain of decisions.

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[tgapp]

^^sfotex thank you for your comments and perspective, it is incredibly appreciated. doesn't feel like you are second guessing their choices at all, but I'll certainly remember your comments and insight for a long time.

thanks for sharing man, and more importantly, thank you for your work and sacrifice here. means more than I can say.

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[9922]

sfotex,

First, thank you and the multitude of the teams and their members for this rescue and recovery effort, and ongoing service.

I did wonder about whether they had airbags and/or avalungs.

thanks again.

[BenWhit14]

Another standout to me re-reading the report is that they were trying to manage the risk by traversing the steeper rollover one at a time - but seems like they never discussed whether they should just eliminate the risk entirely by getting out of dodge... the lowest risk way to do a risky thing may still be an unacceptable level of overall risk.

appreciate this detailed response and local knowledge / context. i'm on the east coast so not familiar with the terrain. i've been wracking my brain about this accident as someone that is relatively inexperienced in the backcountry and more specifically in backcountry with this degree of avalanche problem and consequence. my first instinct was to ask why they were even on that aspect at all on a high danger day but that is of course too easy to do in retrospect and with visual evidence now of it being dangerous avalanche terrain. the fact that it's a barren slope, albeit surrounded by trees on all sides, would at least give me the context clue that it's capable of sliding. it's really difficult to ask "should they have even been there at all?" in a way that is appropriate or not judgmental and of course very challenging to say that in the report.

[Xover]

Thank you Sfotex! Vibes to you as you process what you saw and went through.

[glademaster]

appreciate this detailed response and local knowledge / context. i'm on the east coast so not familiar with the terrain. i've been wracking my brain about this accident as someone that is relatively inexperienced in the backcountry and more specifically in backcountry with this degree of avalanche problem and consequence. my first instinct was to ask why they were even on that aspect at all on a high danger day but that is of course too easy to do in retrospect and with visual evidence now of it being dangerous avalanche terrain. the fact that it's a barren slope, albeit surrounded by trees on all sides, would at least give me the context clue that it's capable of sliding. it's really difficult to ask "should they have even been there at all?" in a way that is appropriate or not judgmental and of course very challenging to say that in the report.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but a slope having trees on it should not be utilized as an indicator of stability/safety. If the trees are spaced out enough to comfortably ski through, it's a slope that has the potential to slide.

Just to add to the pile, thank you to Sfotex for the work you do and the insight you provide here.

[BenWhit14]

right, of course. i'm more so just trying to say that the area that slid looks exposed even among the trees.

[whipski]

To state that it does is hubris, ignorance, or a combination of the two.[/QUOTE]

theme that year was aspect is everything

[MTT]

I was curious. Was there some kind of special memorial or service for the victims?. This was such a big story. It seemed appropriate. Keeping in mind that there are many still dealing with the loss a week is not really very long.

[splitlit]

Brutal. I've made a lot of mistakes touring at that age, with some very close calls, but was lucky enough to gain experience from those.

[sfotex]

From https://www.ksl.com/article/50108063...-4-people-died

[Chris] Gmitro has been called a hero for saving the other skiers, but he doesn't see it that way.

"A hero doesn't put people in that position," he said. "It was everybody's decision, but a heroic decision would have been to ski somewhere else or to not drop in there."

Gmitro lost his girlfriend and two other close friends, 26-year-old Louis Holian and 23-year-old Thomas Steinbrecher, in the avalanche and he hoped no one ever has to go through the same.

"The idea of risk being manageable, sometimes it is until it's not. I hate to think of anybody else going through this," said Gmitro.

He said that day of backcountry skiing, before the avalanche hit, was the best it gets, but said you can get that same experience in less dangerous situations.

He wished he hadn't taken the risk that day, for Sarah's sake.

"I loved her more than anything," said Gmitro.

[MTT]

From https://www.ksl.com/article/50108063...-4-people-died

[Chris] Gmitro has been called a hero for saving the other skiers, but he doesn't see it that way.

"A hero doesn't put people in that position," he said. "It was everybody's decision, but a heroic decision would have been to ski somewhere else or to not drop in there."

Gmitro lost his girlfriend and two other close friends, 26-year-old Louis Holian and 23-year-old Thomas Steinbrecher, in the avalanche and he hoped no one ever has to go through the same.

"The idea of risk being manageable, sometimes it is until it's not. I hate to think of anybody else going through this," said Gmitro.

He said that day of backcountry skiing, before the avalanche hit, was the best it gets, but said you can get that same experience in less dangerous situations.

He wished he hadn't taken the risk that day, for Sarah's sake.

"I loved her more than anything," said Gmitro.

Yeah. This guy. He is solid as they come. Many would have lost their shit. The guy had to do CPR on his dead girl friend. And then moved on to try and save others. Watch out for him. He deserves to be taken care of