The Bootfitter’s Thread

[waxman]

FWIW, I've heard several anecdotal accounts of World Cup fitters just letting the athletes stand as they normally would as well . . .

Having spent a little time in boot rooms when athletes got their new boots it always makes me laugh how people think all the smoke and mirrors of the boot fitting experts is common on World Cup. Yes, there are athletes that get right into (or their coach/husband/supplier does) but the vast majority get a couple punch and grinds and go skiing. Of course their boots are the right size to start with.

Want to change your skiing? Buy the right size boot from a real boot store, not the internet. Don't shop for the best price, buy the best fit. Then wax your skis, hell get them tuned or learn how to yourself. There's a reason WC athletes will go to races without coaches (or boot techs) but not their service men.

[DarthMarkus]

Having spent a little time in boot rooms when athletes got their new boots it always makes me laugh how people think all the smoke and mirrors of the boot fitting experts is common on World Cup. Yes, there are athletes that get right into (or their coach/husband/supplier does) but the vast majority get a couple punch and grinds and go skiing. Of course their boots are the right size to start with.

Want to change your skiing? Buy the right size boot from a real boot store, not the internet. Don't shop for the best price, buy the best fit. Then wax your skis, hell get them tuned or learn how to yourself. There's a reason WC athletes will go to races without coaches (or boot techs) but not their service men.

I think this is an excellent point. So much so, that I think the best bootfitters understand the concept as well. I'm wary of, and avoid, bootfitters that push something otherwise.

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[NWFlow]

I wish some bootfitting magic could make me ski like a world cup athlete.

[waxman]

I wish some bootfitting magic could make me ski like a world cup athlete.

200 days a year on snow, 1 billion squats and you're half way there

[GoldenBC]

I think you all are being a little naive in thinking that high level skiers just overcome all these challenges without work. Keep in mind that they have a certain physiology that allowed them to reach that higher level. Then they also design the products around these gifted athletes. But yeah, knocked need, flat footed Billy just needs to find the right shell fit and he too can perform a-ok even though he can't even balance on one foot on the living room floor.

They also don't just do a simple punch or two and go ski, that's laughable.

[mr_pretzel]

How do ya'll decide on temperatures when punching?

I'm pretty comfortable punching race boot PU/PE and grilamid, but I don't have a feel for consumer PU boots or all the fancy plastics.

Also and tips for malleolus punching on 3 piece boots like the Dalbello Krypton and Lupo? Heat up and go like usual? Or does the cuff need to be treated differently.

[gregL]

How do ya'll decide on temperatures when punching?

I'm pretty comfortable punching race boot PU/PE and grilamid, but I don't have a feel for consumer PU boots or all the fancy plastics.

Also and tips for malleolus punching on 3 piece boots like the Dalbello Krypton and Lupo? Heat up and go like usual? Or does the cuff need to be treated differently.

I never use an IR thermometer anymore, but the finger inside the shell under the punch area system works with pretty much any plastic (if you can hold your finger there for a full second it's not hot enough). The tricky part is knowing how long you can leave the gun on the outside of the shell without melting/bubbling it. I hold the gun about 1/2" or less away from the shell to avoid heating other parts of the scaffo you don't want to distort, and start with 5 seconds on/5 seconds off, watching the surface of the plastic all the time. Pretty much every boot is PU-Ether, PU-Ester, or Grilamid these days, the tough part is figuring out how to deal with the relative thickness of the plastic and when to wait just a few seconds more while heating as the heat moves through the shell material. Dalbello uses Irfran in a few boots, it punches just like Grilamid. There are a few Pebax Rnew boots around as well, which is also OK to work with (not like the old Pebax that needed to sit on the punch all night).

Cabrio boots often require heating all three elements for a maleolus punch, take your time and heat each equally, then buckle it up snugly and punch away.

Another reason to feel the inside of the shell where the punch is going is that there are often contours inside the boot you can't see from the outside (weird, but true) and it will help you figure out what's going on with the pain. This is especially true of medial midfoot and navicular issues, sometimes styloid as well.

[GoldenBC]

To add to GregL's response:

I do the same trick with the finger on the inside. The only variation would be Tecnica PU at the dimpled VAS sections and Dalbello grilamid. I find those two plastics can be punched fairly quickly and successfully with just a touch of heat. Just warm on the inside. This probably only works on a punch that has a high leverage ratio.

I tend to heat from further away, about 4" from the boot. If I don't want other parts of the boot to accidentally get hot, I cover it with a wet cloth.

To ensure I don't melt a boot, I keep the gun a bit further away, set the heat gun at mid power (4 on Makita guns), put my finger on the part getting punch to gauge the heat (hot, but not instant burning), AND HEAT SLOWLY until it's hot to the touch on the inside, then give a super quick rinse of cold water or snow on the outside to reduce marking from the punch. Make sure the plastic doesn't get shiny, this is a precursor to bubbling and looks shitty. Grilamids can be massaged with the punch, I find thick PU needs to be pressed and held while being cooled with snow, on the punch) for best results.

All plastic is basically the same process, it just takes different amounts of time to heat up.

[GoldenBC]

I usually take off the cuff on Krypton/Lupo to punch the lower for the malleolus. Usually don't need to punch the cuff.

[mr_pretzel]

Awesome, thank you both so much!

Generally only leave the thick PU boots to cool on the punch then?
I’ve also never quite understood how long to keep the boot on the punch, though I do use the snow trick when I can.

[detrusor]

If a person needs a little more up/down room in a Lange plug is it a small grind on the boot board?


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[waxman]

If a person needs a little more up/down room in a Lange plug is it a small grind on the boot board?


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Where do you need the room?

[GoldenBC]

Awesome, thank you both so much!

Generally only leave the thick PU boots to cool on the punch then?
I’ve also never quite understood how long to keep the boot on the punch, though I do use the snow trick when I can.

Generally, but not only. It doesn’t have to be thick if it’s PU. You can tell as you’re releasing. Pretty much all toe boxes, no matter the plastic, need to be cooled on the punch.

I find as long as you can see the punch retract as the punch lifts, you will benefit from cooling it on the punch.

If the shell is cold through and through, it should be good.

[turnfarmer]

So I've got a Sidas Custom footbed question for those of you that make them.

When putting a foot into subtalar neurtal, you may often find the first metatarsal raises and needs to be supported. I will place a sticky high density foam piece under the 1st met and grind it to suit as I am grinding the heel stabilizer. However, I find this a less than ideal solution for speed, cleanliness, and longevity.

How do you deal with this? Or does everyone who uses this system avoid making corrective footbeds?

The Sidas pillows make it very easy to introduce a false forefoot varus. Also most feet that look like they have a forefoot varus actually have a supinatus deformity which is actually a soft tissue position due to excessive rear foot pronation or equinus issues.. Posting under submet one will actually destabilize this foot. True forefoot varus is extremely rare.
I recommend you try a lateral forefoot post just behind Mets 4 and 5 as an experiment. This will pronate the midtarsal joint and get the first met to the ground.

[gregL]

Generally only leave the thick PU boots to cool on the punch then?
I’ve also never quite understood how long to keep the boot on the punch, though I do use the snow trick when I can.

Yeah, we are too busy to let anyone leave their boots on the presses unless it is the last boot of the day. Honestly, no recreational boots, even in the 130 flex range, are that thick any more. I've done one true plug boot this season (my own) and I did it at home, but you still only need to let it cool to body temp. If a boot retracts substantially when you take it off the press, you didn't get the plastic hot enough.

[gregL]

If a person needs a little more up/down room in a Lange plug is it a small grind on the boot board?


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Not necessarily, the bootboard is not full-width. Is this for an instep issue?

[detrusor]

It’s really the whole top from first metatarsals through the instep. The footbed is pretty thin already. It’s a Lange ZB with zipfits


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[mr_pretzel]

It’s really the whole top from first metatarsals through the instep. The footbed is pretty thin already. It’s a Lange ZB with zipfits


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Make the zipfit’s hot and squeeze the cork up into the tongue away from the instep with your hands, also make sure you pull up the tongue after putting the boots on.

I have the same issue sometimes and the same setup.

You can also use the instep spreader with great success in a lange plug in my experience.

[natebob]

For those that have a Scott/SVST/Ski Kare press, have you upgraded to the articulating arms? Worth it?

[natebob]

What tools do people like for doing toe length stretches and making more instep room. I have a Ski Kare press, but wondering if there is something better for toe length. What is best for "raising the roof"?

[gregL]

What tools do people like for doing toe length stretches and making more instep room. I have a Ski Kare press, but wondering if there is something better for toe length. What is best for "raising the roof"?

I think I sent you pictures of my toe length setup - I use either wood or hard rubber blocks I fashion by hand with a Foredom and use with the big ring that comes with the lever punch and a small ball on an extension suitable for the BSL inside:



I have a couple of tools for raising insteps, the first is a rounded block you can add to an extension on the lever punch and force it forward (no pictures), the second is a re-configured wood clamp that you wedge into the boot and simply turn the handles after heating the shell:

[gregL]

I think I sent you pictures of my toe length setup - I use either wood or hard rubber blocks I fashion by hand with a Foredom and use with the big ring that comes with the lever punch and a small ball on an extension suitable for the BSL inside:



I have a couple of tools for raising insteps, the first is a rounded block you can add to an extension on the lever punch and force it forward (no pictures), the second is a re-configured wood clamp that you wedge into the boot and simply turn the handles after heating the shell:

Actually my favorite for tall insteps is to sell them an Atomic Hawx Ultra or Prime and do a "hot" heat mold (10 minutes) with 1/4" of foam taped over their instep . . .

[GoldenBC]

Check out my toe punch I had made earlier in this thread. I use it with any shaped punch and extender bits to get the appropriate length based on boot size.

For in steps you can heat gun any shell with padding on top of the foot. We also use actual softballs with the sides cut off so they can fit inside a shell. They perfectly stretch the instep. Use with a shim for a bigger punch.

[natebob]

Thanks Greg I forgot about that toe press pic. The wood clamp is awesome, looks like very effective. Thanks for the help!

[natebob]

GoldenBC that toe punch is sweet, looks a little above my abilities to make. Some good ideas to ponder though. Thanks for the instep ideas also.

What do you guys think about the Masterfit Spacemaker Hydra stuff?