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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    East Kootenays, BC
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    150

    Whos using a Runt?

    So? Online reviews seem good. Some real world from bike nerds is what I am after. What say you?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Access to Granlibakken
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    9,355
    Had to google to figure out WTF you’re talking about

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    Hard no.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    81
    I plan to drop one in my 170mm 2019 Fox 36 this season. I don't have any first hand experience, but everything I have read on line, across many different forums and websites, have had strong praise for the Runt. It's basically the same thing as the Infinite Rate Tune featured on the Manitou Mezzer, which also seems unanimously well praised.

    The only downside I have read about the runt is setting it up is a little more involved. However, even users setup experiences seem pretty well documented online now.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NorCal coast
    Posts
    1,104
    One of my buddies has been running one for over a year in an older Lyrik (~2018?) and really likes it. He's a lighter rider, maybe 140 lbs, so is outside the sweet spot of most dampers and air springs.

    I'm also running a triple chamber air fork now, and would echo that they're a bit more fiddly to dial in, but can be set up to your unique riding style/terrain if you put the effort in.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    slc
    Posts
    14,938
    Can't speak to the Runt specifically but I love my IRT Mezzer. Manitou's IRT system has been around for years now so it's funny to see the Runt suddenly be the hot "new" thing.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    405
    Ive got a buddy who goes at least 250 lbs who loves the Runt in his Lyrik.

    I have known Diaz for a long time. Hes a good dude. He showed me prototypes of the Runt back in 2013 or 2014. Im pretty sure he was selling them in 2016.

    I rode Krista Rusts RFX back then, when she was Diazs teammate. It had a Runt. I outweighed her by quite a bit, so I didnt get a good read on the suspension, other than that it was very comfortable.
    U.P.: up

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Back in Seattle
    Posts
    672
    been debating buying a runt vs replacing my 2018 lyric RC (charger 2.0) with a mezzer to fix the diving issue. Will depend on funds this summer.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SLCizzy
    Posts
    3,006
    Full disclosure: My bike shop shares an address with Diaz Suspension Design, but they are a separate entity. I've paid for every product and service I've gotten from those guys(besides a few beers from The Admiral), and I'm happy to do it. Diaz and Dylan know their shit, think and talk about this shit all day every day, and have the riding skills, speed and experience to back it up.

    I got a Runt installed in a 2019 160mm 36 RC2 in early June 2020. It solved the problems of balancing suppleness/harshness/and fork dive that I'd been struggling with for the prior year. The midstroke support is no joke. It eliminates fork dive and wallowing without compromising suppleness. It's very rare that I'm using all 160mm of travel with the Runt installed, the last 10-20mm(depending on my setup, I have reduced psi a little bit since intial setup) are now reserved for fully-cheating-death-Oh-Shit moments, but the fork does not feel harsh, and basically feels bottomless. Its just using the travel better.

    When airing or pushing into rocks and roots, the bike stays up in its midstroke and maintains attitude, again, without feeling harsh. Just supportive while maintaining grip and small bump compliance.

    Sending your fork to DSD for the full setup is worthwhile, especially if weighing against the cost of buying a Mezzer (Manitou products are still a roll of the dice on QC and product durability IMO). DSD will tune the rebound stack for more high speed rebound damping to maintain control on big hits, then your rebound knob (if a single adjustment knob) will be used to tune LSR for your personal ride feel. They will also generally open up your compression dampers and let the spring do its thing.

    I'm happy to answer any more specific questions about the Runt. I see the guys everyday. Its a really great product made by some of the fastest dudes I've ever ridden with, who really know their shit.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    81
    JoeTron - can you get the guys at Diaz to get a Mag promo code going? I know at the end of last year they were offering a free custom tune with purchase of a runt. It'd be sweet if they had something like that going again.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SLCizzy
    Posts
    3,006
    Im gonna let them figure out their own marketing plans.
    At the moment, they have plenty of work.



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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Making the Bowl Great Again
    Posts
    13,424
    Quote Originally Posted by joetron View Post
    Sending your fork to DSD for the full setup is worthwhile
    I have a 2018 DPX2 and 2018 36. Neither have ever been serviced. It seems like Diaz's prices are really close to Fox's in-house services, even with a custom tune. I am not a very sophisticated suspension guy but my suspension definitely needs a regular servicing, and it seems like it might be worth it to send both the fork and the shock to Diaz to give the 3-year-old bike a refresh. Do you think I would notice an improvement?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Boulder
    Posts
    5,718
    How does this compare to a Vorsprung Luftkappe in terms of feel? They seem like two ways of achieving "Coil-like" performance characteristics?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    slc
    Posts
    14,938
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    Do you think I would notice an improvement?
    You'll notice a huge improvement just from a basic service without any custom fandangling.
    Last edited by Dantheman; 01-27-2021 at 11:46 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SLCizzy
    Posts
    3,006

    Whos using a Runt?

    I had a Luftkappe in the 36 on my old Patrol installed by Suspension Syndicate(another disclaimer: Cody is a friend and former coworker - another great suspension shop) It had tons of grip, but felt very mushy. But it matched the Monarch deluxe or whatever piggyback Monarch was on the rear of that bike) I struggled with setting it up to feel more supportive and lively, and suffered from some weird top out issues. However, the grip was insane during the brief late fall, slippery leaf and root, Maxxis Shorty season that I had it in there before selling. I could see how it was built to perform in wetter PNW conditions.

    I think that Secus thing is more of an analogue to the Runt, but I havent tried one of those.

    In my experience, the Runt stays up in travel but doesnt sacrifice grip.
    Last edited by joetron; 01-27-2021 at 02:41 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    SLCizzy
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    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    I have a 2018 DPX2 and 2018 36. Neither have ever been serviced. It seems like Diaz's prices are really close to Fox's in-house services, even with a custom tune. I am not a very sophisticated suspension guy but my suspension definitely needs a regular servicing, and it seems like it might be worth it to send both the fork and the shock to Diaz to give the 3-year-old bike a refresh. Do you think I would notice an improvement?
    It will definitely make a difference and probably take a lot less time.


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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    I have a 2018 DPX2 and 2018 36. Neither have ever been serviced. It seems like Diaz's prices are really close to Fox's in-house services, even with a custom tune. I am not a very sophisticated suspension guy but my suspension definitely needs a regular servicing, and it seems like it might be worth it to send both the fork and the shock to Diaz to give the 3-year-old bike a refresh. Do you think I would notice an improvement?
    FWIW, I dropped off my DVO Diamond and Topaz with Diaz this fall after a weekend in DGO (guess I should've stopped in to say g'day to joetron...). Both needed service, and I figured I'd have Diaz do a tune while they were torn apart. They had both shipped back to me maybe 10 days later and even though he said there's not a ton of tuning options on DVO stuff, even a hack like me could notice a tremendous improvement.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SLCizzy
    Posts
    3,006

    Whos using a Runt?

    Edit: Glitch in the matrix.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    cow hampshire
    Posts
    6,559

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    East Kootenays, BC
    Posts
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by joetron View Post
    Full disclosure: My bike shop shares an address with Diaz Suspension Design, but they are a separate entity. I've paid for every product and service I've gotten from those guys(besides a few beers from The Admiral), and I'm happy to do it. Diaz and Dylan know their shit, think and talk about this shit all day every day, and have the riding skills, speed and experience to back it up.

    I got a Runt installed in a 2019 160mm 36 RC2 in early June 2020. It solved the problems of balancing suppleness/harshness/and fork dive that I'd been struggling with for the prior year. The midstroke support is no joke. It eliminates fork dive and wallowing without compromising suppleness. It's very rare that I'm using all 160mm of travel with the Runt installed, the last 10-20mm(depending on my setup, I have reduced psi a little bit since intial setup) are now reserved for fully-cheating-death-Oh-Shit moments, but the fork does not feel harsh, and basically feels bottomless. Its just using the travel better.

    When airing or pushing into rocks and roots, the bike stays up in its midstroke and maintains attitude, again, without feeling harsh. Just supportive while maintaining grip and small bump compliance.

    Sending your fork to DSD for the full setup is worthwhile, especially if weighing against the cost of buying a Mezzer (Manitou products are still a roll of the dice on QC and product durability IMO). DSD will tune the rebound stack for more high speed rebound damping to maintain control on big hits, then your rebound knob (if a single adjustment knob) will be used to tune LSR for your personal ride feel. They will also generally open up your compression dampers and let the spring do its thing.

    I'm happy to answer any more specific questions about the Runt. I see the guys everyday. Its a really great product made by some of the fastest dudes I've ever ridden with, who really know their shit.
    Thanks for the info JT. Do you know if they have a fox 38 model in the pipeline?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SLCizzy
    Posts
    3,006
    They do. Its in the very early stages and theyve been slammed with work this winter, so its gonna be a while, but should be coming.


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  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    North Van
    Posts
    3,531
    The Runt looks like a good option for my Zeb, once they make a version for it. The C1 air spring needs to be run at lower pressure to avoid feeling harsh of the top, but then loses some support deeper in the stroke as a result. A two-stage air spring would probably allow me to run the low-pressure spring even softer to boost small bump sensitivity but then achieve support with the secondary air spring.

    The Secus is connected to the negative spring and lowers but not the positive spring. I havent found a detailed explanation of how it works, but my guess is that it reduces the negative spring volume while moving through the first half of the stroke, with pressure from the lowers pushing against an IFP that opposes the negative spring. This would reduce some of the wallowing that you can experience with large negative springs run at lower pressures, where the negative spring has a lot of influence deep into the stroke.

  22. #22
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    Jun 2008
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    SLCizzy
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    Yep, Zeb Runt is in similar timeframe as 38.


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  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Los Alamos, NM
    Posts
    1,756
    Quote Originally Posted by gearhunter View Post
    Thanks for the info JT. Do you know if they have a fox 38 model in the pipeline?
    Been waiting all 2020 for this.
    The 38 seems like a difficult design due to the double tube airspring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jer View Post
    After the first three seconds, Corbet's is really pretty average.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Malcolm View Post
    I mean, it's not your fault. They say talent skips a generation.
    But hey, I'm sure your kids will be sharp as tacks.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Boulder
    Posts
    5,718
    A little Runt update.

    Bike 1: Fox Factory 26 @ 160mm / Pivot Switchblade
    I wanted this bike to track the ground well- Soft off the top but able to handle drops without bottoming. Typically people throw volume spacers at a fork to achieve this, but I felt like I was burying the fork through the middle of travel. After adding a strong amount of compression damping, there wasn't much more support and the fork was feeling harsh.

    Adding the Runt made an immediately difference. I'm running 20% sag with a High pressure chamber pressure of 2x-2.5x the Low pressure. I'm getting good small bump, Support through the middle, buttery smooth parachute back to earth on drops. It's interesting how much harshness was taken out; my plated collarbone always lets me know when I'm on a jarring ride and it's had no issues.

    Bike 2: Fox Stepcast 34 @ 120mm / 2021 Epic Evo.
    - I have this bike set up as a capable XC / Marathon bike. Over all I want the suspension to feel firm, supportive, but still able to use full travel. With a switch of a wheelset, this bike needs to be versatile enough to ride gravel / smooth trails or turn it up for "aggressive trail" riding. I do not want this bike to feel plush, despite that being the easier thing to set up. For a while I was unhappy with the suspension, because when it felt efficient, it also felt harsh.

    In general my strategy has been to keep increasing pressure / air spring support while decreasing progressivity through removing spacers and also decreasing compression damping to reduce harshness. I think I've landed in a good place.

    -In the back I'm running 20% sag with no spacers in an over-stroked Fox DPS- to get ~117mm of travel. Compression is Wide Open per DSD (They recommended a re-valve but have been not been accepting mail-in orders so I'll get to this eventually).

    - On the front, I want the fork to feel balanced with the rear of the bike; Similar Firm and supportive feel but also able to use full travel on big hits / drops. Initially I had a hard time setting this up. I was running the Low pressure to get ~20% sag and the high pressure as 2x the low. With this setup it felt good initially and through the mid-stroke, but I was rarely able to get full travel. Part of me didn't mind because it kept the front end high as I was barreling through chunder.

    I recently landed on running 15% sag for the Low chamber, but instead of High being 2x the Low chamber, I went for 1.5x. I didn't try this initially because it's less than the recommend High pressure being 2x the low pressure. I also reasoned that as the high pressure gets lower and lower, the effect of the Runt must be less and less. However, running at 1.5x kept the mid-stroke supportive, but lets me get deep on the bigger hits.

    Because this set-up was using a lower than recommended high-pressure, I wondered if the Runt was doing anything... so I took it out. Immediately it felt like the fork was wallowing in the mid-stroke despite running the same 15% sag. So, even with a lower High chamber pressure than recommended, the Runt makes a huge difference.

    I'm completely sold on both.
    Last edited by XtrPickels; 08-18-2021 at 10:56 AM.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Imaginationland
    Posts
    4,233
    Quote Originally Posted by XtrPickels View Post
    A little Runt update.

    Bike 1: Fox Factory 26 @ 160mm / Pivot Switchblade
    I wanted this bike to track the ground well- Soft off the top but able to handle drops without bottoming. Typically people throw volume spacers at a fork to achieve this, but I felt like I was burying the fork through the middle of travel. After adding a strong amount of compression damping, there wasn't much more support and the fork was feeling harsh.

    Adding the Runt made an immediately difference. I'm running 20% sag with a High pressure chamber pressure of 2x-2.5x the Low pressure. I'm getting good small bump, Support through the middle, buttery smooth parachute back to earth on drops. It's interesting how much harshness was taken out; my plated collarbone always lets me know when I'm on a jarring ride and it's had no issues.

    Bike 2: Fox Stepcast 34 @ 120mm / 2021 Epic Evo.
    - I have this bike set up as a capable XC bike. Over all I want the suspension to feel firm, supportive, but still able to use travel. Sometimes this bike is ridden on gravel, sometimes on "aggressive trail" terrain. I do not want this bike to feel plush, despite that being the easier thing to set up. For a while I was unhappy with the suspension, Efficient = Harsh. Ultimately I kept upper the pressure and reducing the progressivity and I think I've landed in a good place.

    -In the back I'm running 20% sag with no spacers in an over-stroked Fox DPS- to get ~117mm of travel. Compression is Wide Open per DSD (The recommended a re-valve but have also been not been accepting mail-in orders)

    - On the front, I want the fork to feel balanced with the rear of the bike; Similar Firm and supportive feel but also able to use full travel on big hits / drops. Initially I had a hard time setting this up. I'd say the Runt was Great in the 36, but Good in the 34. I was running the Low pressure to get ~20% sag and the high pressure as 2x the low (per DSD recommendation). With this setup it felt good through the mid-stroke, but I was rarely able to get full travel.

    I recently landed on running 15% sag for the Low chamber, but instead of High being 2x the Low chamber, I went for 1.5x. This still kept the mid-stroke supportive, but lets me get deep on the bigger hits. With this set-up using a lower than recommended high-pressure, I wondered if the Runt was doing anything... so I took it out. Immediately it felt like the fork was wallowing in the mid-stroke despite running the same 15% sag. So, even with a lower High chamber pressure than recommended, the Runt makes a huge difference.

    I'm completely sold on both.
    With a 34 stepcast on the way via my new xc bike, this review is awesome. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

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