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  1. #2051
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    kirby puckett played 12 years and hit 200 home runs. jones had 10 gg, 400hr, and a ring. he’s not just better than another short career hofer, they were contemporaries. anyway with people like rice and puckett in, they need a garage door if the stats matter.
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  2. #2052
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    kirby puckett played 12 years and hit 200 home runs. jones had 10 gg, 400hr, and a ring. he’s not just better than another short career hofer, they were contemporaries. anyway with people like rice and puckett in, they need a garage door if the stats matter.
    Sure, you can compare him to weak HoFers and he looks great!

    But just to play this out, Puckett does have a much lower WAR, due to the defense issue (though Puckett does have 6 GGs himself, some of those were on reputation, and there's no question Jones was the far superior fielder). But Puckett was the FAR superior hitter, even though he hit for less power.

    But in ~350 fewer ABs, Puckett has 400 more hits. 60 points higher in BA, 23 points higher in OBP, 9 points lower in SLG, so OPS is 14 points higher. Puckett has an OPS+ of 124, Jones 111. That's a pretty significant difference. Jones has 5 ASG appearances, Puckett 10. Jones has 1 top 5 MVP finish and 1 top 10. Puckett has 3 top 5s and 4 top 10s. Jones has one SS award, Puckett 6. Oh, and BTW, Puckett has 2 rings.

    Puckett's career started much later (age-wise), and he was solid right up to his retirement at 35. If Jones retired after his age 30 season, all of the stuff above would stay the same (though his rate stats would be better, OBV) and he'd have 66 less HRs.

    Sorry, but if your argument is that Jones was clearly better than Puckett, not sure I agree.
    Last edited by Danno; 01-25-2022 at 06:09 PM.
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  3. #2053
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    Big Papi!!!

  4. #2054
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    MLB 2021 Official Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Sure, you can compare him to weak HoFers and he looks great.

    Sorry, but if your argument is that Jones was clearly better than Puckett, not sure I agree.
    i wouldn’t call kirby weak but some of those stats need context. like, in one of those top 3 mvp votes kirby put up a pedestrian 4 war. that is skating on reputation (though eck did steal one later). andruw had to contend with fellow braves chipper, smoltz, maddux, and glavine stealing mvp support as well as barry bonds winning 17 in a row. i guess that braves team was pretty stacked but if only chipper makes it from the lineup that would be weird. and you already called him the greatest defensive center fielder of his day, so why do i have to convince you he’s better than (in your words) a weak hof case? i could have picked rice if i wanted to do that.

    and if you look at old timers like ralph kiner, he was out of baseball at 32. what athletes do now is far different than before and i don’t see jones retiring at 35 to be some sort of mark against him with his peak.
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  5. #2055
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    kirby puckett played 12 years and hit 200 home runs. jones had 10 gg, 400hr, and a ring. he’s not just better than another short career hofer, they were contemporaries. anyway with people like rice and puckett in, they need a garage door if the stats matter.
    Puckett 2 rings, Jones 0 rings (and without those two rings, baseball would have left Minnesota)
    Puckett 10x Allstar, Jones 5x allstar

    more importantly, it was 21 years ago when WAR wasn’t a thing widely cared about

  6. #2056
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    This era has made me dislike the HoF. The writers are all assholes, some even turning in blank ballots (you couldn’t vote for one fucking player!?!), and they inducted one player in two years.

    Never mind they gave fucking Conjunctivitis Costas the Ford C. Frick Award over so many deserving longtime radio broadcasters.

    What a fucking crock.
    I still call it The Jake.

  7. #2057
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    They are the same assholes who put Bud Selig in the hall of fame 5 years ago.

  8. #2058
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    They are the same assholes who put Bud Selig in the hall of fame 5 years ago.
    Technically the Today’s Game Era Committee elected Bud, not the writers. I think it’s 13 random dudes they found on the street. The same dudes will now vote every year on Bonds and Clemens.

  9. #2059
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    So after yesterday I'm assuming this is how the Hall has decided to deal with icky subjects they don't like, are problematic, or have personal grudges against? Hold the player in baseball purgatory for 10 years then let the various Veterans Committees deal with them later?

    Neat plan guys.
    I still call it The Jake.

  10. #2060
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    What I don't exactly understand is why Bonds and Clemens received so much more support than A-Rod? Perhaps it's just that it was his first year on the ballot, but I would have expected him to get more than 34% of the votes when Bonds got 66%.

  11. #2061
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    ok, i misremembered that jones was on the team that won, since he was not i think that makes his case a little weaker. and kirby was so solid, i don’t mean to diminish him in any way, i just thought it was a useful comparison. it sucks that the same writers that fucked up the mvp voting fuck up the hall. not to mention the damage caused to baseball by everyone… running mlb.
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  12. #2062
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    I think someone with a career average of .254 and a career OPS of .823 who played in such an offensive heavy era is going to have a very difficult time getting into the Hall even if they are one of the greatest defensive players ever. Jones is also hurt by his last full season being at age 30. It's just not a HoF career.

  13. #2063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    If he isn't a first ballot HOF'er then they should just close the place. Congrats to Big Papi
    What about his failed 2003 PED test? Place should already be closed since Bonds wasn’t a 1st ballot hall of famer. BBWAA is a complete fucking joke. How much money did those guys make over Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, McGuire? Selig is the person most guilty for the whole era. He let it happen to makes money and bring back fans who were lost during the strike. I hope there’s another strike and all of baseball can get fucked again.


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  14. #2064
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    I still think it's funny that back in the '90s when offense started exploding everyone was talking about the "juiced ball" when those in the know knew it was really the "juiced player."

  15. #2065
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    I guess there’s form for this though. No new inductees to the HOF in 1950, 1958 and 1960. 1950 *Mel Ott* couldn’t make it in. Had to wait till next year. 1959 only had one inductee via the veterans committee. But over that time they tinkered with the rules.

  16. #2066
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    What about his failed 2003 PED test?
    He said it was a mistake, nbd.
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  17. #2067
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    Big Papi's induction speech should be a hoot. They should just let Kenan Thompson do it for him.

  18. #2068
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    Papi seems like a genuinely likeable guy (I personally liked sending him to the retirement home on a 4 game sweep culminating in Fenway by the Tribe, but that's another story), but the PED positive test for him just highlights the hypocrisy of the election process.

    It's ok for some to have that PED cloud over their head if they were a "good guy". If they were an asshole, spoke out on anything that rubbed that writer the wrong way, or God forbid, embarrassed that writer, then hell no, no way that guy is getting in.

    Papi did get shot though and luckily came back apparently no worse for the wear, and no matter what you think about a guy, that's incredible and I'm happy he didn't die.
    I still call it The Jake.

  19. #2069
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Big Papi's induction speech should be a hoot. They should just let Kenan Thompson do it for him.
    Apologies for the hijack but every time I hear that new NYC mayor on TV I swear it's Tracy Morgan then look up to see it's not. They have got to go there too..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  20. #2070
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    For anyone who thinks that there were even 10% of players who were clean during the PED era. I’ve got ocean front property in Utah to sell you. I’d be shocked if there was even 1 all star from that era who never juiced. To begin with PEDs weren’t illegal in baseball at the time. The hypocrisy of the entire baseball world is pathetic. Ty Cobb murdered 2 people and he’s in there. The fact that even Babe Ruth wasn’t a unanimous selection for the Hall shows that the process has always been a complete joke.


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  21. #2071
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    For anyone who thinks that there were even 10% of players who were clean during the PED era. I’ve got ocean front property in Utah to sell you. I’d be shocked if there was even 1 all star from that era who never juiced. To begin with PEDs weren’t illegal in baseball at the time. The hypocrisy of the entire baseball world is pathetic. Ty Cobb murdered 2 people and he’s in there. The fact that even Babe Ruth wasn’t a unanimous selection for the Hall shows that the process has always been a complete joke.


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    Jim Thome.

    Never even a whisper of PED use. Farm strong.
    I still call it The Jake.

  22. #2072
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    What I don't exactly understand is why Bonds and Clemens received so much more support than A-Rod? Perhaps it's just that it was his first year on the ballot, but I would have expected him to get more than 34% of the votes when Bonds got 66%.
    ARod was caught cheating and served a year suspension, years after the league banned PEDs and started testing. He knowingly took PEDs after they were illegal. And possibly was taking them his whole career. Bonds and Clemens, while being assholes, are pretty much known to have started juicing later in their careers, after their HoF credentials were established.

    ARod's comp is much more Manny than it is Bonds/Clemens.

    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    What about his failed 2003 PED test?
    The problem with that is that when that test was administered, there was no banned list and no mandatory testing, and (supposedly) not everything tested for was illegal.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
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  23. #2073
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Papi seems like a genuinely likeable guy (I personally liked sending him to the retirement home on a 4 game sweep culminating in Fenway by the Tribe, but that's another story), but the PED positive test for him just highlights the hypocrisy of the election process.

    It's ok for some to have that PED cloud over their head if they were a "good guy". If they were an asshole, spoke out on anything that rubbed that writer the wrong way, or God forbid, embarrassed that writer, then hell no, no way that guy is getting in.

    Papi did get shot though and luckily came back apparently no worse for the wear, and no matter what you think about a guy, that's incredible and I'm happy he didn't die.
    His postgame antics during this year’s playoffs outside Fenway were legendary. And respect to ARod for taking the heat from the drunk Boston fans.

  24. #2074
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    HOF is a joke period be it the Rock N Roll HOF or any sports related HOFs.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  25. #2075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    ARod was caught cheating and served a year suspension, years after the league banned PEDs and started testing. He knowingly took PEDs after they were illegal. And possibly was taking them his whole career. Bonds and Clemens, while being assholes, are pretty much known to have started juicing later in their careers, after their HoF credentials were established.

    ARod's comp is much more Manny than it is Bonds/Clemens.
    They all knew they were cheating, so I don't see a huge distinction. Maybe Manny is a better comparison, but Manny also had a lifetime 69 WAR against 117 for Alex. If you look at the list of the ten most similar batters to ARod on Baseball Reference seven of them are in the HoF and the ones who aren't are Pujols, Bonds, and Palmeiro. I also think that if Bonds and Clemens couldn't get enough support from the writers, then it's pretty unlikely that ARod will either.

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