MLB 2021 Official Thread

**BmillsSkier** · 01-26-2022, 02:03 PM

Plus, Arod is just unlikable.

**Danno** · 01-26-2022, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by The AD

They all knew they were cheating, so I don't see a huge distinction. Maybe Manny is a better comparison, but Manny also had a lifetime 69 WAR against 117 for Alex. If you look at the list of the ten most similar batters to ARod on Baseball Reference seven of them are in the HoF and the ones who aren't are Pujols, Bonds, and Palmeiro. I also think that if Bonds and Clemens couldn't get enough support from the writers, then it's pretty unlikely that ARod will either.

Manny is the better comparison because absent PEDs, he's an absolute lock just like ARod, but also got caught cheating just like ARod. How much the distinction matters to you is up to you, but Manny and ARod got caught violating actual rules, and got suspended for that. The list of the ten most similar for Manny are all in the HoF except for Miguel Cabrera. Manny sucked at defense, his oWAR, while still far behind ARod, is closer. And his OPS+ is actually 14 points higher than ARod's. In any event, I'm not arguing which one is more deserving of the HoF, I am arguing that both are locks by stats alone, but both were suspended for violating the actual rules of baseball, after testing and actual rules were installed.

Bonds and Clemens, while assholes who took steroids, did not ever test positive and do not appear to have violated actual written rules. Does that mean they should be elected? YMMV. Does that explain why they received lots more votes than ARod? Probably. Which is my entire point.

**The AD** · 01-26-2022, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Plus, Arod is just unlikable.

I know people tend to hate him, but he's always seemed fairly charismatic to me--at least compared to Bonds and Clemens.

**BmillsSkier** · 01-26-2022, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by The AD

I know people tend to hate him, but he's always seemed fairly charismatic to me--at least compared to Bonds and Clemens.

Well, I guess it matters who he's standing next to.

**Danno** · 01-26-2022, 02:39 PM

ARod's face is next to the word smarmy in the dictionary.

**SumJongGuy** · 01-26-2022, 02:50 PM

Cheating? Does that mean the entire rosters of all the teams caught sign stealing won't be allowed the HOF? None of the 2017 Astros will ever be allowed in amirite? Asking for a friend.

**BmillsSkier** · 01-26-2022, 02:54 PM

The sportstalk station I stream off and on throughout the day has an afternoon host who used to be on WFAN who just want on a pretty epic rant about how fucked up the HoF is, and how fucked up MLB in general is right now and how neither are in any hurry to fix that. Everyone is concerned with their tiny piece of the fiefdom and nothing more.

His one point was that stats are particularly sacred to the sport of baseball, and the Hall and MLB have rendered those stats meaningless by how they've treated players who lead stat categories despite shifts in how the game treats things, created problems, and/or turned a blind eye to them.

There are no shortage of all time stat leaders, or those close to it, that not in the HoF and won't be anytime soon.

Games last too long now and we don't see half the offense we had in the steroid era.

Stupid gimmicky rules that don't improve anything.

Billionaire owners crying that its too expensive to run a team and asking cities and players to fix it for them.

No kind of youth outreach the way MLS, NBA and NFL do to bring in more fans.

Stupid morality about everything, never mind the moral compass swings depending upon which way the cash is blowing.

**SumJongGuy** · 01-26-2022, 03:00 PM

Wanna speed up the game and make it more exciting? Let's count throws to first base as a ball to the hitter.. It's not in the strike zone right? Only way to catch someone off base or stealing is a pitch out which is also a ball.. So, just make the throw to first a ball as well..

**The AD** · 01-26-2022, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Wanna speed up the game and make it more exciting? Let's count throws to first base as a ball to the hitter.. It's not in the strike zone right? Only way to catch someone off base or stealing is a pitch out which is also a ball.. So, just make the throw to first a ball as well..

How about requiring the pitcher to throw the ball to the plate within so many seconds or it's an automatic ball? Also don't allow the batter to call a time out or step out of the batter's box. Get your junk adjusted and take your practice cuts in the on-deck circle.

**BmillsSkier** · 01-26-2022, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by The AD

How about requiring the pitcher to throw the ball to the plate within so many seconds or it's an automatic ball? Also don't allow the batter to call a time out or step out of the batter's box. Get your junk adjusted and take your practice cuts in the on-deck circle.

Somewhere Sean Casey is shuddering at that post.

**ex-powderbroker** · 01-26-2022, 03:59 PM

The more I stew on the Ortiz news the more annoyed I am that he broke the rules and was rewarded with a first ballot while Bonds waits. It's just stupidly inconsistent. And first ballot? For a DH? Great player but whatever, I mean how long did Edgar wait?

I'm calling him Big Popularity from now on. What a joke.

**Supermoon** · 01-26-2022, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by altacoup

What about his failed 2003 PED test? Place should already be closed since Bonds wasn’t a 1st ballot hall of famer. BBWAA is a complete fucking joke. How much money did those guys make over Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, McGuire? Selig is the person most guilty for the whole era. He let it happen to makes money and bring back fans who were lost during the strike. I hope there’s another strike and all of baseball can get fucked again.

Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

His "failed test" was just his name being leaked out of what was supposed to be an anonymous survey test, and then he went on to never fail an official test. That's a lot different than A-Rod who kept using, and you could argue Ortiz' best years were after that.

**Danno** · 01-26-2022, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Supermoon

His "failed test" was just his name being leaked out of what was supposed to be an anonymous survey test, and then he went on to never fail an official test. That's a lot different than A-Rod who kept using, and you could argue Ortiz' best years were after that.

Not to mention his failed test (if calling it that is accurate) included testing for things that weren't actually banned. So he didn't actually break any rules (which is the argument some make with Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc, but not ARod or Manny). And it's not arguable that his best years were after that, they ALL were after that. Because the test he allegedly failed was issued during spring training of 2003, his first year with the Sox.

As for ml242's argument re Edgar, I was in favor of Edgar getting in for many years, but I don't see how the fact that it took Edgar 10 years is a reason to deny Ortiz. It's that same stupid bullshit that kept many players from being unanimous, "because if Babe Ruth wasn't unanimous, Willie Mays/Hank Aaron/Ted Williams shouldn't be!"

If Pudge and Piazza and Bagwell got in, I don't see how you keep Ortiz out.

And I am one who is in favor of Bonds and Clemens also being in, because I am pretty sure that their greatness isn't due to steroids. Their GOAT status might be, but not their HoF status.

**BmillsSkier** · 01-26-2022, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

It's that same stupid bullshit that kept many players from being unanimous, "because if Babe Ruth wasn't unanimous, Willie Mays/Hank Aaron/Ted Williams shouldn't be!"

This shit like when Jr. got elected and the assholes turning in blank ballots are why the whole thing is a fucking baseball writers circlejerk.

**ex-powderbroker** · 01-26-2022, 05:56 PM

i wouldn’t say that ortiz doesn’t belong but there are obvious discrepancies in how players are evaluated.

and there is some blatant rewriting about the failed test here. it wasn’t for caffeine in his system.

**Supermoon** · 01-26-2022, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by ml242

i wouldn’t say that ortiz doesn’t belong but there are obvious discrepancies in how players are evaluated.

and there is some blatant rewriting about the failed test here. it wasn’t for caffeine in his system.

I think the thing is that Bonds' best years were when he was doping, same with Clemens. Ortiz had his best years after, and tested clean. A-Rod was a good player, but got popped, and then faded after that. Plus he's a douche.

**Danno** · 01-26-2022, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by ml242

i wouldn’t say that ortiz doesn’t belong but there are obvious discrepancies in how players are evaluated.

and there is some blatant rewriting about the failed test here. it wasn’t for caffeine in his system.

I agree on both points. The rewriting about the test really came from Manfred himself. Whether that was because he knows something we don't, or was just favoring a player he liked, we just don't know.

Originally Posted by Supermoon

I think the thing is that Bonds' best years were when he was doping, same with Clemens. Ortiz had his best years after, and tested clean. A-Rod was a good player, but got popped, and then faded after that. Plus he's a douche.

This is all weird. While it is true that Bonds' absolute best years -- when he was superhuman -- came after he started juicing, Bonds was an absolute LOCK hall of famer with some incredible years, including 3 MVPs and 8 gold gloves, before he ever started juicing. With Clemens, it's not as clear when he started juicing, and arguably his best years were before that in any event, but at minimum he had 3 CYAs (and his best year he got robbed and finished 2nd) and an MVP before he juiced. Just like Bonds, Clemens was an absolute LOCK hall of famer before he ever started juicing. Making the argument that Ortiz got in because he wasn't juicing during his best years vs Bonds/Clemens is pretty absurd.

And ARod was more than "just a good player" and faded after getting popped because he was in his late 30s. The reason ARod's case is more problematic is a) he was actually caught long after it was formally banned and players were getting tested, and b) nobody knows when he started juicing so nobody knows how to look at his earlier stats. It seems likely that he was juicing for most of his career, since his entire career was during the steroids era, he was on the 2003 list, and was caught red-handed much later too.

I'm not justifying the writers or their choices. But there are reasons to put Ortiz in one box, Bonds/Clemens in another, and ARod in a third.

**Supermoon** · 01-26-2022, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

I'm not justifying the writers or their choices. But there are reasons to put Ortiz in one box, Bonds/Clemens in another, and ARod in a third.

Agreed there.

**SkiBall** · 01-26-2022, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by ml242

i wouldn’t say that ortiz doesn’t belong but there are obvious discrepancies in how players are evaluated.

and there is some blatant rewriting about the failed test here. it wasn’t for caffeine in his system.

Caffeine, greenies, samesies right? Asking for a friend.

**BmillsSkier** · 02-04-2022, 12:52 PM

3 signs of spring arrived in my inbox yesterday:

1) The 2022 MLB Schedule. True to from Cleveland will be opening up at home. On March 31. In a snowstorm.

2) MLB told me they're raising the price on my single-team mlb.tv subscription and that the charge will go through on March 1. Neat, do you know if the season will start on March 1 as well?

3) MLB and Players' Union called for an arbitrator yesterday. Does this mean that they're aware they look like assholes and should try and actually work together to get the season off on time?

**alias_rice** · 02-09-2022, 08:04 AM

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/t...continues/amp/

Looks like Bauer’s legal troubles are over for now. I wonder what MLB will do. It’s probably hard to justify a lengthy suspension at this point considering he sat out half of last year. I still don’t see him back in Dodger blue, especially if reports of Mookie and Kersh not wanting him in the clubhouse are accurate. I’d guess the Dodgers will end up eating half the contract or so and trade him away. We know for sure the Yankees will take him. Chapman and Bauer seem to be a match made in heaven.