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Thread: What's next for alpine bindings?
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01-03-2021, 11:54 AM #1Registered User
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What's next for alpine bindings?
Alpine bindings are pretty good at what they're supposed to do, but the best of the bunch haven't changed much in decades. We've seen a lot on the tech and 50/50 binding fronts lately, but basically nothing from the purely downhill world. Case in point - the tops of Look's and Salomon's binding lines are basically identical to their counterparts from 20 years ago. So what, if anything, is next?
I'm certainly not complaining - if it ain't broke don't fix it. But I gotta believe sooner or later someone's bound to throw something new on the wall that sticks. Any thoughts on where we might go from here?
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My incorrect guess from a few years ago: Despite the utter failures that were the Line Reactor and Knee Binding, when I first saw the Kingpin heel I really thought we were going to see lateral release heels make their way into the mainstream. But, alas, we're still in the same heels we've always been in. Maybe it wasn't a priority for brands. Maybe the basic leverage problems inherent to a dual lateral release system were insurmountable. Either way lateral heel release didn't catch on, and it seems to be a one-off with the Kingpin as the only "successful" implementation to date (piss and moan all you want about Marker, TGR community, but they sold a shit ton of those bindings until the Shift came along.)
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01-03-2021, 01:02 PM #2
I dunno Tyrolia’s had a lateral heel release since the 80’s, and it never got them anywhere. They’ve had far more success in NA since they ditched it (and redesigned their toe).
Maybe we’ll see companies move away from horizontal toes? I’ve ever been a huge fan of how they ski compared to a solly driver toe or a unibody pivot.
Want to know what would make bank? If look finally made a pivot with the same hole pattern and functionality, but a replaceable brake that wasn’t nearly half the cost of the binding.
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01-03-2021, 01:28 PM #3self proclaimed JONG!
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01-03-2021, 01:46 PM #4Registered User
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01-03-2021, 01:56 PM #5
Bindingless....
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01-03-2021, 01:57 PM #6
magnets
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01-03-2021, 02:23 PM #7
Smart bindings that sense the torque profile associated with a crash (or slow twisting fall) and eject.
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01-03-2021, 02:25 PM #8Registered User
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01-03-2021, 02:59 PM #9Registered User
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As long as we can get to something that doesn't work out of the box w/out first downloading an app & creating an account, I'll know the companies are looking out for my skiing performance and safety.
It's actually a really good question, but first you were being way conservative on 20 years. My first Sollys were all metal, had a low "DIN", and looked/worked a lot like Wardens & STHs:
http://www.rpk4.com/product/1973-197...4-binding.html
They've also started getting mail from AARP, where Look turntables were waiting for them.
As a non-binding enthusiast (read: I don't really follow the market, so it needs to be bigger efforts to get my attention), that feels like I now owe you some actual thought -> I think risk is not rewarded enough in the DH market to drive much innovation outside of racing. I also think this must drive the companies crazy as they try to grab recreational market share. To wit, some more recent big steps that have not paid off (as defined by me, the non-enthusiast):
1. Gripwalk & WTR - attempted SRAM/Shimanoization of the market, IMO, that sets the ski swap (if we ever get back to those) industry back 40 years as boot/binding compatibility will once again become an issue. At its base, it shows that the companies are targeting non-skiing performance of the boot/binding system. For me, the real benefit has been the resulting MNC-type bindings that let me ski touring boots inbounds with $150 bindings.
1b. Hostage plates/rails/slots have been tried before for similar market division reasons, but didn't help me walk around the lodge
2. Knee binding - that guy did all the research, took a swing, and now 10 years on they are just as popular as ever. I think the fact that no big players have picked them up (or licensed) say that safety/liability is exactly where it should be for recreational binding market. Also, I think a resurgence of Spademan bindings would give this guy a run for his money.
3. Look bringing back P15 - Pivots are the 911s of bindings -> Look/Porsche can do whatever they want outside of this band, but their most loyal & vocal customers are repeat customers, and won't let them eliminate this range. This isn't innovation, but does have the effect of channeling R&D money down inefficient pathways.
4. Soft boots - Not bindings, but often part of it (see Apex & Dahu now, lots of other players at Goodwill over time). Like GW/WTR, I think companies see off hill comfort/mobility as the a main driver to changing the market/selling more gear. Luckily, this is always fringe players, and at least GW/WTR boots have actual ski boot uppers! I have to say that I am confused why this market doesn't ever grow, and expected a lot of snowboard binding innovation would have helped it by now both in the BC and DH markets.
So that leaves us with the obvious innovation path -> Colorways (the real innovation being don't just say colors...)
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01-03-2021, 03:09 PM #10
Velcro
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01-03-2021, 03:12 PM #11
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01-03-2021, 04:07 PM #12Registered User
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Measuring and lay out, with or without jig, drilling, screws etc. Come on. Imho this is way past time for change. I thought this would all change quickly once it got started with the rail systems and Line's approach several years ago. But no, we're still doing what was done at least 60 years ago, probably more. Its hard to think of anything, sports equipment, vehicles, pretty much anything from that long ago that is even remotely recognizable today.
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01-03-2021, 08:38 PM #13
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01-04-2021, 10:10 AM #14Registered User
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I don't think there is that much money in the price of a ski for the mfgers to thro at integraated binding systems and besides people want to run the binding they want
I don't think its gained any tractionLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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01-04-2021, 11:12 AM #15
Suspension
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01-04-2021, 11:41 AM #16
Downhill bindings will catch up with the rest of the industry in trying to become lighter weight. While this has been happening for decades as a byproduct of companies cutting costs in production, companies will begin making a more concerted effort to market the (low) weight of their bindings. And as with the rest of the industry, this will make the bindings ski worse and break more easily. But the buying public will get it in their heads that a lighter binding is better, and companies will oblige them by creating (and marketing) ever lighter bindings. Moreso than ever, heavy metal bindings will become collectors items.
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01-04-2021, 12:02 PM #17
I've worried about that too for a while. Hopefully Look has learned their lesson about fucking with Pivots (and the fact that they brought back the P15 is promising) but who knows.
It does seem like the trend for light inbounds skis has maybe bottomed out and things are swinging back the other way some, which is good. But it's not hard to imagine Amer making a Shift that doesn't shift (same heel but a simpler brake mechanism that doesn't lock, and a pared down toe that doesn't convert) and marketing it as a super sick new <800g alpine binding that nobody needs.
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01-04-2021, 12:37 PM #18Registered User
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The Cast system seems to have proven that a relatively simple, low-profile, lightweight mounting plate can be strong enough for everyday use. If there was a way to adapt that concept, even within a single brand, to allow for easy at-home centering, size adjustment, and mounting I could be into it. I agree that it's completely ridiculous we're still using mounting techniques from skiing's stone age...
...Then again as someone that deals with bike shops professionally I know firsthand how wary brands are of pissing off independent dealers/retailers. I gotta believe mounts are a decent money maker for small shops, and if a brand made a system to take that away they run the risk of losing their placement on said shop's shelves.
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01-04-2021, 12:53 PM #19Registered User
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there are a myriad of things to consider ^^ the endloser is stuck with one brand of binding, still has to mount that plate to the ski so its really no different
If shit breaks so what do you replace it with, how about 5 yrs down the road
what does end loser who just wants a ski do?
how many "what do I do with this fucked up integral binding system" questions do you see on tech talk ?
There really isnt that much money in a ski and so the cheapest way to sell a ski is the way they are being sold now
I would probably give them a passLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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01-04-2021, 01:35 PM #20
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01-04-2021, 01:56 PM #21
All you really need is just two of the four conglomerates to agree on a mount pattern, then the others follow... see Gripwalk vs WTR....
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01-04-2021, 02:17 PM #22Registered User
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yeah how did that ^^ work with XC, seems like hurding cats to me ?
Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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01-04-2021, 02:34 PM #23
I think that it is all about cutting weight (materials) and increasing safety without compromising performance versus cost. Rail system (motion, neox, rail flex, etc) all suck. Too heavy and very limited. Magnets sound like a good idea, but heavy. However, maybe a non-traditional toe and heel where electromagnets are merely flat pieces placed on skis and boots might work. Super suction is similar. ...Plasma adhesion?
“How does it feel to be the greatest guitarist in the world? I don’t know, go ask Rory Gallagher”. — Jimi Hendrix
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01-04-2021, 02:40 PM #24Registered User
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http://nettrax.myvoffice.com/nikkenu...&pwp=801951200
The new age manLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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01-04-2021, 03:53 PM #25
Mea culpa, their diagonal mechanism allowing for a lateral heel release was around forever but never got them above third place by a mile. I don’t think the attack is underpriced; the extra $30 for a Griffon isn’t exactly crippling marker’s market share. Warden 13 is really not directly comparable to an attack 13; to get the same range of boot sole compatibility you need to step up to the attack 14 at which is.... just as much as the warden 13. I know you know all this.
You can ask SFB, he’s probably mounting more skis than about anyone who’s held a damn drill, but as far as making money: Yes and no, since so many mounts are tied to a sale you end up giving away labor for free. Even charging half price for a mount with a binding sale you’re still not getting that much out of it. It only takes eight minutes to mount a ski; I bang out our 130 ski demo fleet in just over two days. But it takes significantly longer to do a customer’s ski, for obvious reasons, and after you fill out paperwork, adjust the bindings, and test and calibrate the system, it doesn’t exactly mint money. I can generate more revenue with $15 hot waxes.
We still have to charge for a hostage plate/system mount, because the binding still has to be adjusted, calibrated and tested. I can’t discount my labor (because they can’t legally pay me any less), so until binding companies make a system that doesn’t require maintenance and adjustment, and shift the liability entirely onto the end user, doing it all at home is still not going to be an option for 99.99% of people who ski, despite what you see in the MYOFS thread.
Electromagnets, on the other hand, are certain to be a money maker for shops, because you can bet they will not be user-serviceable or inexpensive.
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