Skialper 2021 pin binding safety test?

[tomh79]

Happy new year! Does anybody have the new Skialper Buyer's guide and could shed some light on the binding tests. I know they always test the release of all pin bindings and last year the Dynafit ST Rotation was the only pin binding with a consistent retention/release. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks

[wantriot]

Sounds interesting... Tell me more.

[volklpowdermaniac]

This is something. But not thee actual results
https://www.wildsnow.com/28780/2020-...-guide-review/

[XXX-er]

delta yes, weight yes but I have never heard anyone care about how/if a BC binding releases

[tomh79]

I care since I twisted my knee last year in fall. Binding was Vipec set to 6.5. Want to switch to a binding which (at least on paper) calms my nervs a bit...so maybe the Rotation - but if possible a bit lighter (Crest, Xenic - Xenic had the advantage that I only have to redrill half the holes...)

[XXX-er]

well you sir are a special flower, in a world of fixed spring minimalist tech bindings not many seem to think about it

but i do so i got 2 pair of Verticals and a Rad with independantly adjustable vertical & horizontal release

[skifishbum]

I care since I twisted my knee last year in fall. Binding was Vipec set to 6.5. Want to switch to a binding which (at least on paper) calms my nervs a bit...so maybe the Rotation - but if possible a bit lighter (Crest, Xenic - Xenic had the advantage that I only have to redrill half the holes...)

if yur fall involved poor skiing tecnique
binding dont fix that
inbounds laps help most
i use my tech binders
rippin the shit out of em in resort chunders and various conditions
does wonders to calm my nerves when i ski the bc on em

[tomh79]

if yur fall involved poor skiing tecnique
binding dont fix that
inbounds laps help most
i use my tech binders
rippin the shit out of em in resort chunders and various conditions
does wonders to calm my nerves when i ski the bc on em

good point(s) thanks

[Dee Hubbs]

I care since I twisted my knee last year in fall. Binding was Vipec set to 6.5.)

Turn them down to 5 ♀.

[kid-kapow]

I care since I twisted my knee last year in fall. Binding was Vipec set to 6.5. Want to switch to a binding which (at least on paper) calms my nervs a bit...so maybe the Rotation - but if possible a bit lighter (Crest, Xenic - Xenic had the advantage that I only have to redrill half the holes...)

Que? You want to move from the Vipec - a binding with a toe that has both certified din releasability and elasticity (less forces transmitted to your knees when in use) - to a classic tech binding to improve on the safety aspect? After one fall? That is a does not compute solution to me, though admittedly - I am a huge fan of Vipecs / Tectons and loath Dynafiddles.

I would either decrease the din a bit if it is set too high, or accept that these things happen.

The Rotation is in no way an upgrade on the Vipec, hell - the rotation part is just there to prevent all the pre-releases previous iterations of that binding had - it gives zero meaningful elasticity up front. Sure, you could switch to say an ATK, MTN or Alpinist - but the main benefits of those bindings over a Vipec will be lower weight and a different kind of release characteristics (prevent different types of injuries than standard alpine bindings) - not improved safety imho. Traditional tech bindings will also transfer more forces from the skis to your knees during use, so it seems a bit weird to trade a harsher ride all of the time for a perceived improvement in safety for rare instances - but I guess if it makes you feel more confident then there's a value in that too.

[XXX-er]

i thot the verticals were pretty good, i could never see the point of a rotating toe and don't get me started on the sploding Rad1

[tomh79]

Que? You want to move from the Vipec - a binding with a toe that has both certified din releasability and elasticity (less forces transmitted to your knees when in use) - to a classic tech binding to improve on the safety aspect? After one fall? That is a does not compute solution to me, though admittedly - I am a huge fan of Vipecs / Tectons and loath Dynafiddles.

I would either decrease the din a bit if it is set too high, or accept that these things happen.

The Rotation is in no way an upgrade on the Vipec, hell - the rotation part is just there to prevent all the pre-releases previous iterations of that binding had - it gives zero meaningful elasticity up front. Sure, you could switch to say an ATK, MTN or Alpinist - but the main benefits of those bindings over a Vipec will be lower weight and a different kind of release characteristics (prevent different types of injuries than standard alpine bindings) - not improved safety imho. Traditional tech bindings will also transfer more forces from the skis to your knees during use, so it seems a bit weird to trade a harsher ride all of the time for a perceived improvement in safety for rare instances - but I guess if it makes you feel more confident then there's a value in that too.

Interesting thoughts and of course you are right talking about preceived vs actual safety. From what I read (one study I think) toe release is better for preventing fractures and heel release is better at preventing soft tissue damages (which I'm more afraid of...). But I got your point about less elasticity/more force transfer/harsher ride. Maybe I just have to improve my skiing and calm my nerves a bit...

[skifishbum]

not suckin never hurts
i dont like or want plastic on my bindings nor rube goldberg techtron/vipec features
it aint a percieved thing its seeing what breaks and what dont in decades in shops

[doebedoe]

You should care way more about preventing fractures than soft tissue. One sucks, the other can be a medical emergency if you’re in the backcountry.

[rod9301]

I care since I twisted my knee last year in fall. Binding was Vipec set to 6.5. Want to switch to a binding which (at least on paper) calms my nervs a bit...so maybe the Rotation - but if possible a bit lighter (Crest, Xenic - Xenic had the advantage that I only have to redrill half the holes...)

There's no binding that can prevent twisting your knee.
Broken bones, yes, that's what they are designed for.
Soft tissue, no way

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[Tjaardbreeuwer]

I care since I twisted my knee last year in fall. Binding was Vipec set to 6.5. Want to switch to a binding which (at least on paper) calms my nervs a bit...

Happy new year! Does anybody have the new Skialper Buyer's guide and could shed some light on the binding tests. I know they always test the release of all pin bindings and last year the Dynafit ST Rotation was the only pin binding with a consistent retention/release. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks

Let's think through this for a minute. The value of the Ski Alper test is that they test the bindings with 3(?) different boots, to see if they release accord to spec. I think the only part about 'consistency' is whether different boots release differently(but I might be wrong). This is very useful for prospective buyers: If you buy that binding, there is a very good chance you can adjust it to release at the correct torque (but still no guarantee).
For example, Alpin.de tested bindings a while back, and they were unable to get a proper lateral release of the Salomon Mtn/Atomic Backland binding, when using the brakes, no matter how far they turned the adjustment, due to excessive friction between heel and brake pad.

However, you already have a binding mounted. Since the Vipec releases laterally at the toe, and vertically at the heel, you can take it to any (alpine) shop and have the release tested with your boots. You don't care if the results are the same with other boots, or if the printed numbers match up with actual torque. You only care whether whether you are able to adjust the binding to release at the specified torque (and the Vipec should be able to. It was DIN certified, and mine released correctly.). Once you have that, you are in a better position than buying a binding the Skialper tested as releasing correctly with different boots.

As far as twisting your knee, that is a completely separate issue from whether or not a binding releases properly on the bench. A 'normal' tech binding with lateral release at the rear might protect better against rearward twisting falls (injuring knees)*, but the Vipec will do better in forward twisting falls(breaking lower leg). I'd say, for most people, that's not a good tradeoff.

*https://skimo.co/tech-binding-release-testing

[tomh79]

thanks a lot - very helpful answer! I will have my Vipec tested (just curious...) do you have the Ski Alper test results by any chance? And I talked to Fritschi about the min. 3mm distance between boot sole and binding at the toe piece. My Maestrale RS sits about 1-2mm above the plastic of the toe piece. Fritschi said: they had to communicate 3mm minimum because that's the TÜV value. Because if the boot sole is closer to the binding than 3mm - with pressure/flex it could touch and not release properly. But they also said...I should walk more with the boot or sand down the rubber a bit...

[Benneke10]

Alpin.de tested bindings a while back, and they were unable to get a proper lateral release of the Salomon Mtn/Atomic Backland binding, when using the brakes, no matter how far they turned the adjustment, due to excessive friction between heel and brake pad.

I'm surprised more people don't talk about this, especially since its one of the most popular, if not the most popular tech binding and most use the brake. I know some people don't care much about releasability in tech bindings but I imagine a lot of people would care but just don't know since it isn't discussed or written about much. The Alpin.de test convinced me to spend the extra $$ on some Crests.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I'm surprised more people don't talk about this, especially since its one of the most popular, if not the most popular tech binding and most use the brake. I know some people don't care much about releasability in tech bindings but I imagine a lot of people would care but just don't know since it isn't discussed or written about much. The Alpin.de test convinced me to spend the extra $$ on some Crests.

People are similarly in denial about the blocks they put under their heels. No way that doesn't change release.

I believe Dynafit used to have lighter springs in Verticals that came with brakes.

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[galibier_numero_un]

... I believe Dynafit used to have lighter springs in Verticals that came with brakes.

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Yup. If you bought brakes separately, they included lighter springs.

... Thom

[Tjaardbreeuwer]

I'm surprised more people don't talk about this, especially since its one of the most popular, if not the most popular tech binding and most use the brake. I know some people don't care much about releasability in tech bindings but I imagine a lot of people would care but just don't know since it isn't discussed or written about much. The Alpin.de test convinced me to spend the extra $$ on some Crests.

haha, that’s funny, I ended up with the exact same bindings after reading that. The lighter weight and adjustable vertical release didn’t hurt either.

[tomh79]

haha, that’s funny, I ended up with the exact same bindings after reading that. The lighter weight and adjustable vertical release didn’t hurt either.

Thread hijack: how are the Crests on wider skis (around 105ish) - if I remember them correctly...the drilling pattern is kind of narrow?