Hand numbness while riding

[XXX-er]

I've had tennis elbow 5 times from a death grip on a ww paddle with a shaft that was too big

but never knumb hands, of course YMMV, could be anything

I'm suprised no one has suggested the nekid picts

[ridinshockgun]

Always think about ways to vary your grip and move the hands around on climbs and easier flat sections. A lot of times I just lay the heel of my hand or fingertips on the grip, etc especially on fire road climbs and can even do this on a lot of singletrack climbs. I find if I do this it doesn't really matter what grip or bars or saddle angle, etc. Even on long rides 8-10 hours.

I had constant hand numbness issues for several years at first and this is how I solved it. Same thing on the road bike. Loose grip and move around.

[frorider]

For ulnar nerve issues, playing around with the cockpit setup can help (as already noted) but can be a temporary fix. The more significant gain comes from consciously activating your core so that your palms aren’t putting much weight on the grips during climbs or mellow sections. Pinkbike’s instructional series of videos covered this often overlooked topic.

[Quadzilla]

A little accessory That I use to take pressure off my hands and give a little security when riding "monkey grip"
Hooks and PNW handle bars.

[sethschmautz]

Bumping this thread up a bit. My wife has been riding a v1 Tallboy. I built her an Esker Rowl and to try to combat potential wrist issues I set up her cockpit to be a bit more upright including a carbon bar with some rise. She likes a lot about the Rowl but the wrist issue is a lot worse. She's back to riding the Tallboy because it doesn't make her wrists hurt.

Other than swapping her back to the flat bar and making sure that the measurements are as close as possible between the two bikes' cockpits, any other suggestions on things to check? I think the Rowl would be a better bike long term and allow her to feel more comfortable on tougher terrain, but she likes the Tallboy and her wrists don't hurt so unless I can figure it out I think she'll probably continue to ride that bike (which isn't a terrible thing).

Seth

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Bumping this thread up a bit. My wife has been riding a v1 Tallboy. I built her an Esker Rowl and to try to combat potential wrist issues I set up her cockpit to be a bit more upright including a carbon bar with some rise. She likes a lot about the Rowl but the wrist issue is a lot worse. She's back to riding the Tallboy because it doesn't make her wrists hurt.

Other than swapping her back to the flat bar and making sure that the measurements are as close as possible between the two bikes' cockpits, any other suggestions on things to check? I think the Rowl would be a better bike long term and allow her to feel more comfortable on tougher terrain, but she likes the Tallboy and her wrists don't hurt so unless I can figure it out I think she'll probably continue to ride that bike (which isn't a terrible thing).

Seth

Get her a bend h-bar from Jones or similar. More sweep and a little rise. The sweep looks dramatic and you’ll think it’ll make the grip too close but they sweep forward too. No loss of control and so much more comfortable.


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[Bushwacka]

Bumping this thread up a bit. My wife has been riding a v1 Tallboy. I built her an Esker Rowl and to try to combat potential wrist issues I set up her cockpit to be a bit more upright including a carbon bar with some rise. She likes a lot about the Rowl but the wrist issue is a lot worse. She's back to riding the Tallboy because it doesn't make her wrists hurt.

Other than swapping her back to the flat bar and making sure that the measurements are as close as possible between the two bikes' cockpits, any other suggestions on things to check? I think the Rowl would be a better bike long term and allow her to feel more comfortable on tougher terrain, but she likes the Tallboy and her wrists don't hurt so unless I can figure it out I think she'll probably continue to ride that bike (which isn't a terrible thing).

Seth

If the ESKER Rowl has longer fork than the tallboy than the handle bars are already mostly like higher than the tall boy. Whats the bar sweep between them?

[toast2266]

Aside from all of the (good) suggestions re: handlebar geometry and grip options, have you tried a shorter stem and scooting the saddle forward on the rails? That'll shift weight off of the hands without sacrificing too much in the handling department.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Aside from all of the (good) suggestions re: handlebar geometry and grip options, have you tried a shorter stem and scooting the saddle forward on the rails? That'll shift weight off of the hands without sacrificing too much in the handling department.

I was actually wondering about an opposite issue: a seat being further forward relative to the cranks can make you less stable - kind of tipping forward - forcing you to push back harder with your hands to stabilize your upper body. If the new bike has a steeper seat tube angle, that could be the case.

[VTskibum]

Think last two are both getting at what I’d be wondering is if there is too much weight on hands; either via too far back (using hands to stay upright) or too far forward (putting pressure on hands).

Other things that I’d check could be saddle tilted fire or aft.

Before plunking down a ton of money on new bars etc, MTB bike fit may be considered. Bike fits for mtb are unusually not warranted, as so much is out of the saddle, but could go through the motions and set her bike up with lots of different stem/saddle/bar options. A good fitter may be able to sort through it, but YMMV as I have some buddies that have done it and been pleased but others said it didn’t help.


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[toast2266]

I was actually wondering about an opposite issue: a seat being further forward relative to the cranks can make you less stable - kind of tipping forward - forcing you to push back harder with your hands to stabilize your upper body. If the new bike has a steeper seat tube angle, that could be the case.

Yeah, certainly could be that. Although I suspect it's not on this particular bike (Mrs. Seth's Esker used to be my Esker). That bike doesn't have a super steep seat angle - when I was riding it, I kept my saddle positioned pretty far forward (although for me that wasn't about hand pressure - it was just to keep my back happier on long climbs).

[Andeh]

In my experience, I feel like I have to shake out my hands after long pedaling bits when:
*the more I have to lean forward, the more weight gets carried by my hands and less by my core. If you think about it, when your trunk is folded over more, it takes a lot more core strength to hold that position than if you're more upright, so it's natural that you end up supporting your weight with your hands.
*the trail is flatter, so the front of the bike is lower and I have to lean further forward to keep my hands in contact with the bar, therefore increasing pressure on my hands
*the seat angle is slacker and/or the effective top tube is longer. Similar to above, with slacker seat angles or longer ETT, to maintain grip on the bar while pedaling, I find myself leaning forward more, which puts pressure on hands.
*saddle nose is too far down. If I tilt the nose down much at all, especially on flatter climbs, I feel like I'm being pushed forward and almost slipping off the saddle, consequently end up supporting my weight more with my hands.


I'd start by taking some measurements on your two bikes as currently set up. Check the effective top tube (say, center of bars to a certain point on the saddle), effective seat angle (from center of BB to a certain point on saddle), and saddle angle. Maybe also have her get on both bikes and take a photo from the side, and compare her body position to see if you can isolate the differences.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I'd start by taking some measurements on your two bikes as currently set up. Check the effective top tube (say, center of bars to a certain point on the saddle), effective seat angle (from center of BB to a certain point on saddle), and saddle angle. Maybe also have her get on both bikes and take a photo from the side, and compare her body position to see if you can isolate the differences.

This.

Since you have a bike that’s comfortable, best to try and figure out what the differences are. This should be a much better situation to be in than if you didn’t have a good fitting bike.

Regarding measuring seat tube angle and distance to bars: a common way to measure fore/aft saddle position (instead of trying to measure the actual angle) is to drop a plumb line from the tip of the saddle and measuring distance between bottom bracket spindle and plumb line. Reach to bar is commonly measured tip of saddle to center of handlebar at the stem clamp.

[ghosthop]

I was having ulnar nerve issues last season to the point that I stopped riding for a time.

I repositioned my saddle to be slightly nose high so that I wasn't pitched forward. I had to change to a saddle with a serious cut out to avoid numbness but no issues since doing so.

I have been working on my core since last spring and am v happy with the results. My wife too! I started simple with static planks and noticed a change on the bike in about three weeks.

I have become conscious of my wrists collapsing while riding, especially extended downhill sections. Bar sweep was important as well. I had been on straight bars, changed to 5 deg. swept back, and will be changing to 12 deg. over the winter.

[sethschmautz]

Thanks all.

I started this thread before I built this bike up for her so I originally built it with taking weight off of her hands in mind. This included:

1. Shorter stem
2. Bars with both sweep and rise (I'll get dims when I get home later)
3. 150mm Fox 36 vs 130mm Pike
4. More stem spacers

I tried to keep her reach numbers the same (nose of saddle to middle of bar) and keep her seat angle roughly neutral. I can try going a little more nose high.

Grips are different brands but are relatively similar - both Ergon style with more palm support.

Tires are identical with the same pressure. Rims are .5mm different interior width.

I've tried a few different stems in trying to figure this out, so will do some current measurements between the two bikes.

I haven't touched the volume tokens that Toast had in the fork and I've considered that this might be a contributor. I've been meaning to change this but haven't gotten around to it. Maybe the pressure is ramping up too quickly and giving her a harsher ride compared to the Pike.

HA is much slacker on the Rowl vs the Tallboy.

SA is steeper (I believe) on the Rowl than the Tallboy.

Seth

[toast2266]

Have you measured the saddle to handlebar drop on each bike?

It sounds like the cockpits are pretty similar, but stack height might be substantially different on one bike vs. the other. If the saddle - handlebar drop is substantially lower on the Rowl, that'd explain some things (and would be an easy fix).

[bagtagley]

Have you measured the saddle to handlebar drop on each bike?

It sounds like the cockpits are pretty similar, but stack height might be substantially different on one bike vs. the other. If the saddle - handlebar drop is substantially lower on the Rowl, that'd explain some things (and would be an easy fix).

That's what I was thinking.

If you really want to nerd out, you can put the bikes against a wall and mark the touch points, it makes it easier to measure and compare.

[sethschmautz]

I did some measurements last night and came up with the following:

Rowl
Bar height - 43.5"
Saddle height - 41.5"
(Bar 2" heigher than saddle)
Center bars to center saddle (center seatpost) - 26.5"
Stem: 75mm

Tallboy
Bar height - 42"
Saddle height - 40.5"
(Bar 1.5" higher than saddle)
Center bars to center saddle (center seatpost) - 25.5"
Stem: 50mm

Observations:
When I originally built this bike I had a 30 or 40mm stem on there which should have made the reach roughly the same. Per request, I put a longer stem on there. Maybe it would be a good idea to shorten that back up.

Handlebars are slightly higher in relation to the saddle on the Rowl vs the TB.

I did not measure saddle angle but it looked relatively flat. The saddle on the TB appeared to have a slightly higher nose. TB also had a longer saddle (WTB Silverado on TB vs Phenom Mimic on the Rowl).

We played around with shifter/brake/grip angles a bit while first riding it and that seemed to help but not make the wrist issues go away completely.

Rowl has Chromag Fubars (31.8) with 25mm rise, 780 width, 5 deg up, 8 deg sweep
TB has Easton XC70 bars (31.8) with 20mm rise, 685 width, 9 deg ('m guessing sweep, but doesn't specify).

Still confused about this. It's late in the season, but maybe I'll look around for a MTB fitter. If anybody else sees something obvious in the numbers above, let me know.

Thanks for the help!

Seth

[toast2266]

The issue seems really clear to me. There are basically two issues.

1) 1" longer saddle to bar on the Rowl is a fair amount. That's a whole size difference in most frames (so since that Rowl is a size large, that setup is effectively the same as an XL with a 50mm stem). The most obvious culprit is the stem. A 75 mm stem is really, really long for that type of bike. For a bike like the Rowl, I'd consider 60mm to be the absolute longest stem I'd ever use. And I say that as someone who is generally not a fan of running ultra short stems. Reducing the stem to 50mm would bring the saddle to bar measurement in line with the TB.

2) Rowl has bars that are waaaaay wider. Wider bars shift more weight forward. General rule of thumb is 20mm of bar width = 10mm of stem length. The bars on the Rowl are 95mm wider, so that's roughly equivalent to 47.5 mm of stem length. Which means the Rowl, which is already ~25mm longer due to the 75 mm stem, actually feels more like 73mm longer due to long stem + wide bar.

Solution:

To start with, I'd swap the TB stem and bars directly onto the Rowl. I'd say there's a good chance that alone will solve the problem as it will dramatically change her body position.

In the long term, I'd say 685mm bars are awfully narrow, at least for a bike like the Rowl. I'd venture a guess that a happy medium on that bike might be something like a 40mm stem with 740mm bars. But I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole until you experiment with the parts that you have a bit more.

[J. Barron DeJong]

The issue seems really clear to me. There are basically two issues.

1) 1" longer saddle to bar on the Rowl is a fair amount. That's a whole size difference in most frames (so since that Rowl is a size large, that setup is effectively the same as an XL with a 50mm stem). The most obvious culprit is the stem. A 75 mm stem is really, really long for that type of bike. For a bike like the Rowl, I'd consider 60mm to be the absolute longest stem I'd ever use. And I say that as someone who is generally not a fan of running ultra short stems. Reducing the stem to 50mm would bring the saddle to bar measurement in line with the TB.

2) Rowl has bars that are waaaaay wider. Wider bars shift more weight forward. General rule of thumb is 20mm of bar width = 10mm of stem length. The bars on the Rowl are 95mm wider, so that's roughly equivalent to 47.5 mm of stem length. Which means the Rowl, which is already ~25mm longer due to the 75 mm stem, actually feels more like 73mm longer due to long stem + wide bar.

Solution:

To start with, I'd swap the TB stem and bars directly onto the Rowl. I'd say there's a good chance that alone will solve the problem as it will dramatically change her body position.

In the long term, I'd say 685mm bars are awfully narrow, at least for a bike like the Rowl. I'd venture a guess that a happy medium on that bike might be something like a 40mm stem with 740mm bars. But I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole until you experiment with the parts that you have a bit more.

I second all this. Would definitely try this before going down the fitter route.

[Andeh]

What Toast said sums it up nicely. I'd also add that you can consider slightly higher rise bars when you transition to normal width (~35mm rise with ~750mm bars), as that will bring them closer vertically and compensate a little bit for the increased width.

Ergon grips tend to stick out a fair amount (~10mm) from the bar ends, so there's a good chance on the Rowl she's got effectively 805mm bar width, which is huge for anyone <6 ft. I'd suggest doing the pushup test to check what her actual ideal bar width is. Assuming it's a size medium frame, it's probably in the 740-760mm range.

[Canada1]

Where are you. My older racer was having some problems. Went to a guy in Heber who spent five minutes, made two changes to his bike and all back pain disappeared. Call shops and see if they have a guy. Wish I had done this a lot sooner!

[sethschmautz]

Thanks gents.

The Rowl originally had a 40mm stem so I'll put that back on. I'll also try the narrower bars to see if the problems go away.

When she was riding the TB primarily I did a big component upgrade that included wheels, rear shock, fork, stem and bars. The bars I put on there during this were 780mm flat bars. Since she already has had wrist issues in the past and didn't ride MTB that much during that time, I probably made this issue worse without realizing it.

In moving to the Rowl I put the Chromag bars on there to try to help with the wrist issues. Too many changing variables to really make sense of it without putting it all down on paper.

I'll give the stem/bar swap a shot and see if that helps and post back if we are still struggling to find a solution.

Thanks!

Seth

[sethschmautz]

Where are you. My older racer was having some problems. Went to a guy in Heber who spent five minutes, made two changes to his bike and all back pain disappeared. Call shops and see if they have a guy. Wish I had done this a lot sooner!

Kalispell, MT

[Shredhead]

I’m fine while riding. But I wake up in the middle of the night or really early in the morning and my hands are numb.

Sucks getting old.