To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[skiJ]

I'd like to thank SkiJ for being a voice of reason and advocate for staying on topic in this discussion/thread. Your patience and restraint far surpasses my own.

Thank you, SumJongGuy - others are more deserving of recognition;


I Am grateful for an opportunity to try to have a Positive part.

humbly. skiJ

[altasnob]

I'm 73 with grandkids under 12. Please, do go on and justify your opinion.

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of. This is particularly true for children, who aren't competent to decide on their own. It's morally tragic to kill off a perfectly healthy 5 year old so that a chain smoking, McDonalds eating, 60 year old can keep on living a few more years. Moreover, it makes no sense economically. Children have more value, economically, to society than old people. Countries with old average ages, low birth rates, and no immigration, are facing fiscal crisis. You need youth to work to make society hum along for the old people. Younger brains also have better cognitive function, although it varies depending on the field (most brilliant scientific breakthroughs were accomplished by young minds).

Not saying that the vaccines shouldn't be approved for children. Just saying we live in a world controlled by evil old men who repeatedly fail to recognize harms to the next generation.

[Sirshredalot]

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of. This is particularly true for children, who aren't competent to decide on their own. It's morally tragic to kill off a perfectly healthy 5 year old so that a chain smoking, McDonalds eating, 60 year old can keep on living a few more years. Moreover, it makes no sense economically. Children have more value, economically, to society than old people. Countries with old average ages, low birth rates, and no immigration, are facing fiscal crisis. You need youth to work to make society hum along for the old people. Younger brains also have better cognitive function, although it varies depending on the field (most brilliant scientific breakthroughs were accomplished by young minds).

Was there ever an age when your brain worked or has it always been like this?

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

[altasnob]

Was there ever an age when your brain worked or has it always been like this?

One of those evil old men, eh?

[SumJongGuy]

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of. This is particularly true for children, who aren't competent to decide on their own. It's morally tragic to kill off a perfectly healthy 5 year old so that a chain smoking, McDonalds eating, 60 year old can keep on living a few more years. Moreover, it makes no sense economically. Children have more value, economically, to society than old people. Countries with old average ages, low birth rates, and no immigration, are facing fiscal crisis. You need youth to work to make society hum along for the old people. Younger brains also have better cognitive function, although it varies depending on the field (most brilliant scientific breakthroughs were accomplished by young minds).

Not saying that the vaccines shouldn't be approved for children. Just saying we live in a world controlled by evil old men who repeatedly fail to recognize harms to the next generation.

Well just like smoking, they can mandate/regulate public spaces like schools, places of business and employment, pretty much everywhere people participate in society TOGETHER, You have the option to opt out and stay home. Otherwise, short of a legit doctor's or bona fide religious exemption like those honored in public schools ALREADY get the jab or stay home. I do think they should give a legit vaccine card to those who do have such a well documented approved exemption.. Just says exempt on the card. Set it up so it's also in the databases as legit so these can be checked when someone hands a piece of paper that says "exempt" on it.

[jono]

Altasnob: please quantify the benefit to a five year old of growing up with grandparents vs. the cost of growing up to learn that as a child they were the vector that passed the disease on.

I know a couple such kids and their cousins. They were all quite traumatized by the funeral. The ones that probably brought it home to dad, grandpa and grandma are too young to understand but plenty old enough to remember. Someday they'll probably know.

People seem to think masks represent some serious risk to kids, too. Maybe. But the risk that we know about for sure is definitely worse.

[skiJ]

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of. This is particularly true for children, who aren't competent to decide on their own. It's morally tragic to kill off a perfectly healthy 5 year old so that a chain smoking, McDonalds eating, 60 year old can keep on living a few more years. Moreover, it makes no sense economically. Children have more value, economically, to society than old people. Countries with old average ages, low birth rates, and no immigration, are facing fiscal crisis. You need youth to work to make society hum along for the old people. Younger brains also have better cognitive function, although it varies depending on the field (most brilliant scientific breakthroughs were accomplished by young minds).

Not saying that the vaccines shouldn't be approved for children. Just saying we live in a world controlled by evil old men who repeatedly fail to recognize harms to the next generation.

preserved for posterity.


wow. Just wow. skiJ


postscript -

I go back to one of my earliest claims,

' there is just no persuading some people... '


to equate vaccination with 'killing a child' is beyond my ability to relate -

the Risk with these vaccines is on the orders of magnitude of 1 / 100,000 to 1 / Millions - and the cause-and-effect associations,,, are not-strong.

( in the studies I reviewed last weekend, I found only One case of myocarditis - but the projections ( with "no follow-up" ) created statistical models that claimed myocarditis is a risk ( it has been diagnosed in cases of covid.
but the report that associated it with vaccination, was from a group ages 12-39 ( Thirty-nine. it did not state how old the individual with myocarditis was )


is there risk with vaccination ? a Very Small ( probably not statistically significant ) risk ;

is there risk of contracting covid and risks from covid - without vaccination (?) they appear to be growing (risks) ( Delta variant. and the risk of long-term side effects. )


a "... chain smoking, McDonald's eating, 60 year old... " - And

several other claims about cognitive capacity and economic impact are acknowledged, and
are very difficult to defend
( I know of very few 5-12year olds capable of independent living and capable of contributing economically - And my mind leapt to Industrialization before child labor laws...

I will not imagine that is a goal. )


vaccination - With a Safe, tested product ( not without risk ), will benefit the children, and benefit society.


thanks for (listening). tj

[east or bust]

… growing up to learn that as a child they were the vector that passed the disease on.

I know a couple such kids and their cousins. They were all quite traumatized by the funeral. The ones that probably brought it home to dad, grandpa and grandma are too young to understand but plenty old enough to remember. Someday they'll probably know.

[mcski]

Data?



No, you don't get the intended use. It is not a research tool. It is not data. It is an early warning system for possible vaccine reactions and side effects. It is of use to people in the vaccine making, testing, regulating, and giving business who are willing to sort through the garbage. It is probably most useful for the first few million doses given after approval. So someone at the FDA or a maker can pull out all the reports on a new vaccine and see if there is anything that warrants further examination. It does require sorting through a lot of crap--but even the crap might be important. My kid fell down and banged his head after he got a shot. Well, maybe the vaccine is causing neurological problems. If there are a lot of reports of kids falling down with one particular vaccine it's worth looking into.

There is post marketing surveillance of all drugs and devices. Docs report adverse reactions to the FDA. I've used the reporting system. I don't recall if there are any restrictions on who can report and I'm not aware if there's a publicly accessible database other than the FOIA. Certainly the plaintiffs' bar keeps an eye on such things.

"Don't criticize what you can't understand"--B. Dylan, in a wildly different context.

I do get the intended use and yes by definition it is data. We can quibble over whether getting info from the early warning system constitutes research or not. The question is whether that intended use ever has revealed anything importan that otherwise would not have been recognized. Maybe? Idk, but without reading up on it I’ve never heard of that early warning system catching anything. If it has, that “win” has been buried by the avalanche of crap in that system which has become a primary piece of FUD marketing for the antivax crowd. In the db world, it’s garbage in, garbage out. Even in a good database, there is a lot of noise. At this point, it seems like there would be a better source of early warning information available. It seems like a stretch at this point to say it provides more early warning actionable info than pure garbage unrelated, questionably correlated spam. I guess the question is have there been any significant cases where the proper usage of it has resulted in action being taken?

[jono]

Quantify it.

[bodywhomper]

There are a lot of kids getting sick from delta. Not super high acuity or a super high death rate. But there's no reason to drag our feet on the matter.

I'm looking forward to getting my older kid her shots. Not too much longer for the 6m-5yo group, either, from what I understand.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

Data?

What kind of data are you looking for? In the US, I would question the quality of data for kids unless it’s a pretty small sample size because of the lack of contract tracing, incongruous isolation and mitigation of exposure, lack of tracking of mild cases, and lack of surveillance testing.

[altasnob]

Altasnob: please quantify the benefit to a five year old of growing up with grandparents vs. the cost of growing up to learn that as a child they were the vector that passed the disease on.

Obviously difficult to quantify. It's also difficult to quantify the loss a parent and grandparent feels when their perfectly healthy kid dies after getting vaccinated.

It is also difficult the quantify the benefit of the vaccine vs. the risk of COVID. Today, we don't know all the long term risk of the vaccine, just like we don't know the long term risks of COVID. I trust the powers that be to do their best when they make recommendations. But as a youngish person (at least on TGR) who is increasingly frustrated with modern capitalism, where the rich just keep on getting richer as the earth continually gets fucked, it's getting increasingly hard to trust the powers that be. How much have Moderna, Pfizer, and J & J shareholders and executives made during the pandemic? Young people feel the CDC and FDA are just in cahoots with these drug companies and Wall Street. This pandemic has fucked up the earth and it's not because of stubborn anti-vaxers. The stock market keeps making the rich get richer, housing is through the roof, the environment is in shambles. If you are ignoring these concerns you are out of touch with how young people are thinking. Grandpa had his chance to make the world a better place and they failed.

[wooley12]

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of. This is particularly true for children, who aren't competent to decide on their own. It's morally tragic to kill off a perfectly healthy 5 year old so that a chain smoking, McDonalds eating, 60 year old can keep on living a few more years. Moreover, it makes no sense economically. Children have more value, economically, to society than old people. Countries with old average ages, low birth rates, and no immigration, are facing fiscal crisis. You need youth to work to make society hum along for the old people. Younger brains also have better cognitive function, although it varies depending on the field (most brilliant scientific breakthroughs were accomplished by young minds).

Not saying that the vaccines shouldn't be approved for children. Just saying we live in a world controlled by evil old men who repeatedly fail to recognize harms to the next generation.

Ageism. Got it.
Planned on getting the boooster today with Grandma but have plans with the family tomorrow and don't want to risk eing under the weather. So Monday is boooster day.

[old goat]

it's (VAERS ) being used as 'data' - and

the 'studies' that are being (published) are being,,, treated like ( 'research' ) in the internet Information age...


I will go back and look for the 'studies' that were citied in restricting Moderna in Sweden and Denmark. . .

( the reports I read last weekend, stated specifically(,) there was "no follow-up" ( about the VAERS reports used to generate the 'study' ) )

I will follow-up. tj


postscript -

... and Finland -

none of the half a dozen articles I reviewed included a link to the Swedish study, which reportedly gathered ( data / information ) from Sweden, Denmark, and Finland -

the 'report' has reportedly been submitted to Sweden's Regulatory agency for review - expected within thirty days. ...


... happy hunting. tj

I don't believe the myocarditis data came from VAERS--but pausing a vaccine while further analysis and study is done would be the perfect use of VAERS. That is exactly what it is for.
Getting rid of or significantly restricting VAERS because some ignorant, malignant people choose to use it the wrong way would be a mistake. I am sick and tired of people saying that this or that information should not be released or this or that decision shouldn't be made because some people will take it the wrong way, or use it the wrong way, or become confused. People do not lose confidence in leaders and experts when they state the facts or explain their decisions clearly, straightforwardly, and confidently. They lose confident when the leaders and experts sound defensive or wishy washy or uncertain. And by uncertain I don't mean they should hide what they don't know, but that they should sound confident in what they do know and open about what they don't.

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of. This is particularly true for children, who aren't competent to decide on their own. It's morally tragic to kill off a perfectly healthy 5 year old so that a chain smoking, McDonalds eating, 60 year old can keep on living a few more years. Moreover, it makes no sense economically. Children have more value, economically, to society than old people. Countries with old average ages, low birth rates, and no immigration, are facing fiscal crisis. You need youth to work to make society hum along for the old people. Younger brains also have better cognitive function, although it varies depending on the field (most brilliant scientific breakthroughs were accomplished by young minds).

Not saying that the vaccines shouldn't be approved for children. Just saying we live in a world controlled by evil old men who repeatedly fail to recognize harms to the next generation.

Straw man. There is no one suggesting that children should receive a covid vaccine if trials show that more children are harmed by the vaccine than are helped. I am not aware of any vaccine that has ever been given that deliberately caused more harm than good to the targeted individuals in the interest of the benefit to society.

It is important to consider the time factor in analyzing vaccine trials. While a bad reaction to a vaccine almost always occurs soon after the vaccination the benefit goes on for months or years or for life--so while the risk does not increase over time the benefit does.

And BTW, maybe if VAERS had been around fewer children would have been paralyzed or died from the bad batch of Cutter polio vaccine.

As far as your last post above--not worth commented on.

[altasnob]

( in the studies I reviewed last weekend, I found only One case of myocarditis - but the projections ( with "no follow-up" ) created statistical models that claimed myocarditis is a risk ( it has been diagnosed in cases of covid.
but the report that associated it with vaccination, was from a group ages 12-39 ( Thirty-nine. it did not state how old the individual with myocarditis was )

Why has Sweden, Denmark, and Finland paused Moderna for men under 30? Are they smoking crack?

[jono]

This pandemic has fucked up the earth and it's not because of stubborn anti-vaxers. The stock market keeps making the rich get richer, housing is through the roof, the environment is in shambles. If you are ignoring these concerns you are out of touch with how young people are thinking. Grandpa had his chance to make the world a better place and they failed.

I thought you were arguing for looking at all of the costs and benefits to the kids, but if you're hoping to exact revenge on Grandpa for his generation's sins then you're making a different argument. In case anyone does want to look at the costs and benefits to kids, does that revenge have some specific value to the younger generations that you'd like to include?

[funkendrenchman]

Pfizer asks for an EUA for kids. I'm surprised. I expected them to go through the whole full authorization process and not ask for the EUA. I haven't seen the figures for 5-12's--maybe there are more kids getting sick and dying than I realize. Given the number of unvaccinated adults it's hard to justify asking for an EUA on the basis of controlling the pandemic.

My policy of avoiding kids 5-12 as much as possible, pandemic or no pandemic, shots or no shots, remains in place.

“While each individual child has a low chance of developing severe disease, the current pediatric surge, which has been compounded by an off-season spike in RSV and parainfluenza cases, has grave implications for health care networks.”

https://time.com/6092446/pediatric-covid-19-surge/

[altasnob]

I thought you were arguing for looking at all of the costs and benefits to the kids, but if you're hoping to exact revenge on Grandpa for his generation's sins then you're making a different argument.

Yes, I shouldn't conflate the two. I am just pointing out that young people in America, young people on earth, are not happy. They are frustrated that no one seems to be listening to their concerns. It's creating a breeding ground for conspiracies and a general lack of trust in government.

Old Goat says this:

There is no one suggesting that children should receive a covid vaccine if trials show that more children are harmed by the vaccine than are helped. I am not aware of any vaccine that has ever been given that deliberately caused more harm than good to the targeted individuals in the interest of the benefit to society.

I say exactly same thing here:

No person, regardless of age, should ever be mandated to take a vaccine if the personal risk of the vaccine outweighs the benefits of the vaccine. From my understanding, that is not true for any age group the vaccine is currently approved of.

And yet I get shit for what I say.

[MultiVerse]

Today, we don't know all the long term risk of the vaccine, just like we don't know the long term risks of COVID.

While it's true we don't know everything the constant refrain that we don't the long term risk of the vaccines is overstated. The risks associated with vaccines are almost entirely short term risks associated with things like adverse allergic reactions or accidental injection into a vein instead of muscle.

Vaccination is a natural form of immunity. Covid vaccines show your body's natural defenses how to recognize and kill the virus, then they disappear. They don't stay with you, they don't change your DNA, and serious adverse effects from vaccination are extraordinarily rare.

The overarching concern is serious short term adverse effects, and much less long term effects.

And yet I get shit for what I say.

Part of the problem is bad faith arguments. While both you and old goat make valid points, and other countries have reached similar conclusions, the argument these decisions are driven by evil old men interested solely in protecting themselves at the expense of children crosses the line into the disastrous politicization of public health.

[CarlMega]

Today, we don't know all the long term risk of the vaccine,.

This has been a narrative I'd like to lean into. Given what we know about vaccines over the last few hundred years, is there any evidence that indicates there should be a concern about a long term risk? I mean, inherent uncertainty aside - are there past examples in immunology or a reason to believe (thru evidence) that issues will manifest years down the line? I could see a more immediate side-effect being unrealized until data is coalesced. But is there a "oh I took this vaccine in 1980 and now I have a heart issue in 2020?"

I feel this is more about caving to FUD than an evidence based concern. But I'd love to be informed on it by someone with credible experience.

Edit: ^Looks like MV beat me by seconds. But still curious.

[uglymoney]

Shingrix one today because I'm thinking about about vaccines all the time now. It is the five G ring in my ear that keeps telling me in a voice that sounds like Bill Gates without a wimpy face to 'get it, make the dash, pass by the pharmacy again and you will get a rash! Two bills paid for by the shield. Isn't that many times the price of the covid shot profit yield? No generic alt, the tell tale red flag pox of evil whales tracking our choices and issuing stearing voices. Why is this shingly poison punch, the product of mad liberal scientists meeting over a martini lunch, overseen by shadow men out to eat our lunch, then dispose of our empty mutant corpses in a black rose ditch, not the subject of a Youtube truth killing lynch?

I hear Shingrex two can be a daddies bitch.

[altasnob]

While it's true we don't know everything the constant refrain that we don't the long term risk of the vaccines is overstated. The risks associated with vaccines are almost entirely short term risks associated with adverse allergic reactions or accidental injection into a vein instead of muscle.

Given what we know about vaccines over the last few hundred years, is there any evidence that indicates there should be a concern about a long term risk? I mean, inherent uncertainty aside - are there past examples in immunology or a reason to believe (thru evidence) that issues will manifest years down the line?

I agree with all of the above. But do we know all the long term effects of Genetically Modified Organisms, micro-plastics, 6PPD-quinone (a chemical currently used in tires that is killing all the salmon, and probably humans too)?

I think peoples' inherit (although incorrect) distrust in the vaccines is a culmination of decades of governments telling us things are ok when in fact, they may not be ok.

[east or bust]

Quantify it.

I haven’t been following this thread, just checked in and saw a pretty reachy post from you. We probably agree regarding masks/vaccine for kids (as long as the studies say it’s safe).

I would just hope you don’t grow up as one of those kid’s crazy uncles telling them they killed their parents all through their childhood. What a weird take with no factual basis.

[XXX-er]

more than the usual number of angels dancing on the head of a pin here but I am betting under 12 yr old kids will end up getting a vax before too long

[jono]

I haven’t been following this thread, just checked in and saw a pretty reachy post from you. We probably agree regarding masks/vaccine for kids (as long as the studies say it’s safe).

I would just hope you don’t grow up as one of those kid’s crazy uncles telling them they killed their parents all through their childhood. What a weird take with no factual basis.

Obviously no one in their family is going to tell them. Unfortunately it's already been discussed because the factual basis is the order in which symptoms appeared. I hope it hasn't been discussed within earshot of their generation, but I don't really know--people say things without attributing blame that kids reinterpret later.