To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[garyfromterrace]

...I do get a little kick out of shaking the hive...

Yeah, figured as much. Last post I see of yours troll.

Mofro, thanks for continued good information.
Thanks also to others who've posted up good info and tried to educate the un-educatable. It's just so fucking bizarre to me that we have so many people fighting this battle against science and fact.

So ridiculous that the "debate" continues. So deplorable that lies get replayed as fact. So frightening that charlatans get airplay and are touted as sources. I just want this shit to be over...

[neufox47]

I am not sure where you are getting your information, or/and what your point is... (?)

the information claimed is not broken down by demographics, nor 'health status'.

If you are claiming -intuitively- that a greater proportion of the vaccinated population is elderly, there are several reports that refute that ;
If you are claiming that the elderly vaccinated population is "sicker" than the unvaccinated population, I understand that from a certain perspective that appears to be an intuitive conclusion, and
I have seen no study that substantiates that claim.
from my reading, the vaccinated population is generally healthier ( ' Not "sicker" ) than the unvaccinated population, and if you are trying to compare an elderly vaccinated population with a younger unvaccinated population, I don't believe that is a valid analysis.

Maine's data shows what it shows - it is not broken-down by demographics and it does not need to be ;

I challenge the assertion that the vaccinated population is older And sicker than the unvaccinated population.
. . . this seems like a subtle assertion that vaccination is primarily for the benefit of the elderly And vaccination is unnecessary in younger demographic groups.

I believe these claims are demonstrably False.


Vaccination benefits everyone.
in my reading, the unvaccinated are ("sicker". your term) than the vaccinated ( comparisons across demographic groups are not valid. )
the claim that the vaccinated population is 'sicker' than the unvaccinated population is contrary to my reading.

the Maine data does not support the claims - it is not broken-down by demographics, and there is no baseline assessment of health ( 'sicker'-ness );
in-fact, the only reference to vaccination status is as the data attempts to report "Breakthrough" cases ; it says noting about cases in the unvaccinated population.

( please come back with corresponding information in the unvaccinated population. )


Thank you. tj

The point is if you compare a vaccinated and unvaccinated population and they have similar hospitalization rates (they aren’t that similar in this case but kinda) and it turns out the vaccinated are on average 10 years older that population will naturally have more hospitalizations.

The fact that currently the vaccinated are older than the unvaccinated isn’t really disputed. Virtually all population data shows that older folks have (smartly) gotten vaccinated as they are at higher risks. We also no that almost no one under 12 has been vaccinated. All else constant that would mean the unvaccinated are significantly younger.

https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/de...ccination-data

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...-unvaccinated/

This article pretty much sums it up.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.c...imination.html

I certainly am not implying that I think the young and healthy don’t need to be vaccinated.

[Skidog]

The point is if you compare a vaccinated and unvaccinated population and they have similar hospitalization rates (they aren’t that similar in this case but kinda) and it turns out the vaccinated are on average 10 years older that population will naturally have more hospitalizations.

The fact that currently the vaccinated are older than the unvaccinated isn’t really disputed. Virtually all population data shows that older folks have (smartly) gotten vaccinated as they are at higher risks. We also no that almost no one under 12 has been vaccinated. All else constant that would mean the unvaccinated are significantly younger.

https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/de...ccination-data

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...-unvaccinated/

This article pretty much sums it up.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.c...imination.html

I certainly am not implying that I think the young and healthy don’t need to be vaccinated.

We "also know" that about 66 total , repeat TOTAL have died in the last 365 days from covid between 5-11.

#theskyisfalling #protectgrandma

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[Danno]

Skidog, you've been a member of this community for a long time, but this thread seems to be your kryptonite. Maybe you should consider just staying out of it. Which is more important to you, trying to prove you're right in this thread, which is just going down the road you've already been down, or remaining a positive member of this community?

[Skidog]

#mandateinuterovaccination

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[Skidog]

Skidog, you've been a member of this community for a long time, but this thread seems to be your kryptonite. Maybe you should consider just staying out of it. Which is more important to you, trying to prove you're right in this thread, which is just going down the road you've already been down, or remaining a positive member of this community?

Honestly? I'm totally disgusted by this "community" anymore. Long time or not.

I've hooked up mags many times. Skied with a good 2 handfuls. Had mags stay at my place. This place is 100000% "our way" or you're a troll. It has nothing to do with "kryptonite". Don't follow the "science" the media, and 4 "mags" push and well....troll.

Fuck off retards. Until you ban me 100% (which would go against everything this place means), I'll be here to remind you how stupid you all really are.

#vaccineoryouareakiller
#poorgrandma

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[Skidog]

Fyi..

Grandma (nonna) 71
Grandpa 77

Me 50
Wife 48
Daughter 13
Son 9
Sister 47
Brother in law 48
Neice 14

"Stopped" seeing family for exactly 1 week march 2020. 20 kid party 7/2020. Every holiday spent with above and extended family since covid.

Entire list above is now fully vaccinated except for 9yr old who is scheduled for 11/20/2021.

9yr old son needed operation for hernia/nut not dropping. Original consult 10/10/2021. Outpatient surgery 11/3/2021. Outpatient was like a deli counter in orange county NY (NYC was ground zero covid 2020). So yep ...it's literally bogging down EVERY hospital in America.

We should all be VERY scared.

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[bennymac]

A guy I used to know is now an ICU doctor. He has gotten death threats from anti-vax, anti-mandate, pro-ivermectin/HCQ deplorables.

“Imagine having an emboldened mob of people yelling and screaming at you every day, constantly, when from your perspective you're really just trying to do good. You're actually trying to provide the advice that is going to protect people from dying.

It does weigh heavily on me, I look over my shoulder all the time. I'm pretty nervous to take my mask off in public when I'm outside on the street for fear that someone might recognize me who wants to do me harm”

Honestly he is one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met. The fact that he wants to keep working an incredibly demanding and challenging job that now involves crossing picket lines and fearing for his safety is admirable - but incredibly sad that this is added to his job responsibilities.

So a special fuck you to any of you making ICU staff’s jobs harder - or worse threatening violence against health care workers.

[skiJ]

The point is if you compare a vaccinated and unvaccinated population and they have similar hospitalization rates (they aren’t that similar in this case but kinda) and it turns out the vaccinated are on average 10 years older that population will naturally have more hospitalizations.

The fact that currently the vaccinated are older than the unvaccinated isn’t really disputed. Virtually all population data shows that older folks have (smartly) gotten vaccinated as they are at higher risks. We also no that almost no one under 12 has been vaccinated. All else constant that would mean the unvaccinated are significantly younger.

https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/de...ccination-data

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covi...-unvaccinated/

This article pretty much sums it up.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nymag.c...imination.html

I certainly am not implying that I think the young and healthy don’t need to be vaccinated.

I have tried hard to understand your point(s) and your goals - and
I simply don't believe we are, ' comparing apples to other apples ' --

in your opening paragraph above, you try to claim hospitalization rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated people are 'kind of' similar...

No ! they are not ! not even close !
in my reading, without demographic skew, unvaccinated people are 10x to 40x more likely to develop "severe covid ( that requiring hospitalization)" ...

so I started reading the essay from the Intelligencer, and I got about halfway through and my concern continued to grow - all of this shift in focus to demographic disparity - what is the point ? what is the goal ?

and there it is, in the last two sentences of the essay - the biggest effect seen by vaccinating for covid is shown in vaccinating the elderly, so "Why hasn't the WhiteHouse fully committed to funding that effort, again? "


excuse me (?)

This is an insidious 'argument' -
inches of prose, to close with an inflammatory claim that from my perspective is simply Not-true.

... simply Not-true.

Good grief --

And
When the bill comes-due for the Government's response to covid ,,,
( That's Not my department - but my brief review as it related weeks ago to an idea raised up-thread indicated on the order of magnitude of Two trillion dollars for fiscal year 2021 alone ( covid. Not just vaccination, covid.
. . . I have no idea what the author would have the WH do, And that is a separate conversation, ... ) )

to me, this is an insidious argument that focuses on the idea of the individual - and first seeks to compare prevalence of the disease in children, with those "older - but not elderly" and when that meets resistance, wants to include the elderly, because the elderly are dying.

yes, old people die.
it is the last event of Life.


so., I am going to pass on the idea of making comparisons across demographics, while claiming that hospitalization rates are anywhere near "kind of" comparable between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated, when my reading shows this is clearly not-true and there is a disparity that may be as great as 40x.
And
quietly (silently) promoting the idea that would promote reservoir populations enabling the pandemic to simply become epidemic.

I respect the efforts of many through these pages - promoting vaccination, and now for several, getting children vaccinated -

Thank you ! !

historically,
A society's ( /societies' ) response to a pandemic is Not a focus on the individual, but about a program ( or a policy, if you will ) to try to eliminate a disease.
it won't succeed when in a nation of 329Million, the focus is on the individual.

and
more recently upthread, we now are seeing increasing efforts to harass and intimidate those providing medical care ( for covid patients ) ...


What is wrong with people ?


again, my thanks to those who have beern so patiently working with Determination to treat and prevent this deadly disease...

Thank you. tj

[Kinnikinnick]

Honestly? I'm totally disgusted by this "community" anymore. Long time or not.

I've hooked up mags many times. Skied with a good 2 handfuls. Had mags stay at my place. This place is 100000% "our way" or you're a troll. It has nothing to do with "kryptonite". Don't follow the "science" the media, and 4 "mags" push and well....troll.

Fuck off retards. Until you ban me 100% (which would go against everything this place means), I'll be here to remind you how stupid you all really are.

#vaccineoryouareakiller
#poorgrandma

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What a butthurt little cunt.

Are you going to cry now ski bitch?






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[riser4]

What a butthurt little cunt.




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Please don't quote him.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

It’s interesting that someone could correlate the ability to get an outpatient surgery with hospital ICUs being overwhelmed. Right now the only scheduled surgeries we do are outpatient. Anything that might require an inpatient bed needs to be urgent or emergent to get done, if we have a bed.

Must lack critical thinking skills

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[alias_rice]

So my 10 and 5 year old got the vax on Wednesday. Other than the 10 year old having a sore arm for a few days there were no side effects. The pharmacist did mention that we may be better off waiting 5-6 weeks before dose 2 as opposed to 3 weeks. He says there is some limited evidence that it infers better immunity with less risk of side effects.

[skifishbum]

I knew what I was getting into. Longtime lurker. I do get a little kick out of shaking the hive. But I don’t have too much time on my hands anymore. Things I’ve learned skij seems like a genuinely nice person. Carl mega seems like a douche, if I was a roofer he would be pulling out roofing nails out of his tires for years to come. Poor skidog really likes tgr, his ban was pretty weak. Wasting time, staring out your phone to argue with idiots is not healthy or productive. Covid sucks, everyones probably going to get it. Boosters make your dick bigger. Chances of a breakthrough infection are 1 and a million unless you live in maine😉 Peace bitches it’s almost ski season.
Hasta la vista, hopefully not tomorrow

if you were a roofer youd be buff as fuck and pulling tang and paychecks not puttin nails in tires

[skiJ]

A guy I used to know is now an ICU doctor. He has gotten death threats from anti-vax, anti-mandate, pro-ivermectin/HCQ deplorables.

“Imagine having an emboldened mob of people yelling and screaming at you every day, constantly, when from your perspective you're really just trying to do good. You're actually trying to provide the advice that is going to protect people from dying.

It does weigh heavily on me, I look over my shoulder all the time. I'm pretty nervous to take my mask off in public when I'm outside on the street for fear that someone might recognize me who wants to do me harm”

Honestly he is one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met. The fact that he wants to keep working an incredibly demanding and challenging job that now involves crossing picket lines and fearing for his safety is admirable - but incredibly sad that this is added to his job responsibilities.

So a special fuck you to any of you making ICU staff’s jobs harder - or worse threatening violence against health care workers.

I am saddened and I am sorry for your friend.

something about this feels biblical to me - or at least historic.

I did a little reading, and I would be interested if any of the Historians see any parallels to the crusades. ... ?


( I 'll leave it at that. thread drift -- )

thanks. skiJ

[ill-advised strategy]

Honestly? I'm totally disgusted by this "community" anymore. Long time or not.

Fuck off retards.

No, we’ll stay and you’ll fuck off.
You’re the retard for not getting it the first time.

[skiJ]

RE: (Skidog) / i-as


yeah (yes) - I saw that.

why someone would want to be here just to sling (vulgar) insults ,,, I cannot understand.


Maybe it goes back to a cliche of my childhood : " Misery loves company. "


Good luck. skiJ


Thank you, i-as

[Skidog]

No, we’ll stay and you’ll fuck off.
You’re the retard for not getting it the first time.

Still here pal.

Now, in this thread, to pot stir.

Let's see how those "mandates" work out, what we up to about half the states in the USA suing? My guess is it will be magically declared, on or about Jan 8, covid has been beaten. Then they can just say, nope no worries, no mandates needed. Scare tactics to get you to comply.

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[summit]

It’s interesting that someone could correlate the ability to get an outpatient surgery with hospital ICUs being overwhelmed. Right now the only scheduled surgeries we do are outpatient. Anything that might require an inpatient bed needs to be urgent or emergent to get done, if we have a bed.

Must lack critical thinking skills

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Yes, but, sometimes people end up in extended recovery... and PACU RNs and Anesthesia are the only people you 1. actually could attempt to draft into the ICU 2. you might actually want in that supplemental role.

[concretejungle]

Off to get the kid vaxxed this morning. Such a weight off my shoulders.


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[old_newguy]

Yawn.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yes, but, sometimes people end up in extended recovery... and PACU RNs and Anesthesia are the only people you 1. actually could attempt to draft into the ICU 2. you might actually want in that supplemental role.

I’m really surprised how aggressive we’ve been pushing patients out the door. I understand the critical care dynamics with staffing, just pointing out that someone thinking that getting an outpatient surgery correlates to everything being fine in hospitals. You know it’s clearly not the case.


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[summit]

The "vaccine" totally works. I mean the CDC didnt change the definition of vaccine on their website at all.

I have some genuine questions buddy:

Do you believe that changing a few words in a line of text on a sub-page on one website for clarity actually changed the "true" actual "definition" that health science has for vaccines? Do you REALLY believe that?

Do you REALLY think all the immunologists and virologists got a memo from CDC saying "hey this is the new definition for vaccines, we changed a few words, it's official, don't tell anyone!" And then the entirety of healthcare went along with this bad and nefarious change?

You think you have a GOTCHA moment here? Once again the nefarious plans of the COVID conspiracy were spoiled by internet sleuths? Or do you think that perhaps you as a layman are just now getting exposed to one-liner "definitions" that scientists and health professionals don't give a second glance and realities of disease prevention that shock you but not those who work in the field? I'll give you a hint... it is the latter and this isn't some new COVID reality.

Here is Summit's vaccine definition:

Vaccines train the immune system to fight target antigens if exposed to the pathogen bearing those antigens (or producing them) thereby reducing infection, severity and transmission rates. That is as it always has been. There are 10 major types of vaccine designs (similar pathogen (heterotypic), inactivated virus, attenuated virus, OMV, viral vector, mRNA, DNA, inactivated toxoid, protein subunit, conjugate). There are at least 4 of these types used in the designs of the many COVID vaccines out there. They all do the same thing: Vaccines give the body a training target so the body is ready to recognize and kill it faster and easier in the future, and without the negative effects of having to suffer the actual infection.

You don't think it works?

Do you REALLY believe that vaccines have to work 100% of the time on 100% of the people who receive them, otherwise they don't actually work? Do you know that exactly ZERO vaccines work like that? I'm glad you know that now, and it is not some new COVID thing. Did you recall that the original criteria to meet for the COVID vaccine was 50% efficacy and these vaccines work (far) better than that? The evidence is clear as day that the vaccines are super helpful and work most of the time to prevent infection, transmission, hospitalization, and death. That is not disputable by any means short of proverbially sticking cotton in your ears and shouting "la la la!"

You WILL get exposed to the virus, it is inevitable, and it is up to you whether your immune system is trained or naïve.

[Skidog]

It’s interesting that someone could correlate the ability to get an outpatient surgery with hospital ICUs being overwhelmed. Right now the only scheduled surgeries we do are outpatient. Anything that might require an inpatient bed needs to be urgent or emergent to get done, if we have a bed.

Must lack critical thinking skills

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Yeah because an outpatient surgery could NEVER result in complications that required overnight stays.

Wow I am glad I don't take medical advice from you. Talk about no critical thinking skills. Another tard.

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[Skidog]

I have some genuine questions buddy:

Do you believe that changing a few words in a line of text on a sub-page on one website for clarity actually changed the "true" actual "definition" that health science has for vaccines? Do you REALLY believe that?

Do you REALLY think all the immunologists and virologists got a memo from CDC saying "hey this is the new definition for vaccines, we changed a few words, it's official, don't tell anyone!" And then the entirety of healthcare went along with this bad and nefarious change?

You think you have a GOTCHA moment here? Once again the nefarious plans of the COVID conspiracy were spoiled by internet sleuths? Or do you think that perhaps you as a layman are just now getting exposed to one-liner "definitions" that scientists and health professionals don't give a second glance and realities of disease prevention that shock you but not those who work in the field? I'll give you a hint... it is the latter and this isn't some new COVID reality.

Here is Summit's vaccine definition:

Vaccines train the immune system to fight target antigens if exposed to the pathogen bearing those antigens (or producing them) thereby reducing infection, severity and transmission rates. That is as it always has been. There are 10 major types of vaccine designs (similar pathogen (heterotypic), inactivated virus, attenuated virus, OMV, viral vector, mRNA, DNA, inactivated toxoid, protein subunit, conjugate). There are at least 4 of these types used in the designs of the many COVID vaccines out there. They all do the same thing: Vaccines give the body a training target so the body is ready to recognize and kill it faster and easier in the future, and without the negative effects of having to suffer the actual infection.

You don't think it works?

Do you REALLY believe that vaccines have to work 100% of the time on 100% of the people who receive them, otherwise they don't actually work? Do you know that exactly ZERO vaccines work like that? I'm glad you know that now, and it is not some new COVID thing. Did you recall that the original criteria to meet for the COVID vaccine was 50% efficacy and these vaccines work (far) better than that? The evidence is clear as day that the vaccines are super helpful and work most of the time to prevent infection, transmission, hospitalization, and death. That is not disputable by any means short of proverbially sticking cotton in your ears and shouting "la la la!"

You WILL get exposed to the virus, it is inevitable, and it is up to you whether your immune system is trained or naïve.

Yeah nothing fishy at all. The CDC just coincidentally changed both the definition of vaccine and the definition of gain of function research just in the last few months. Nothing to do with Covid messaging at all, it was planned to be updated years ago.

Nothing to see here folks, move along. Do as we say.

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