To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Kinnikinnick]

2 shots eh

the real problem is that this fucking crayon eater is teaching your American youth

Gotta keep Americans knowing that they magically have as much knowledge as those dagnabbit “experts.”


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[jono]

Is there any potential harm (both morally and/or medically) from getting vaccines that don't increase your immunity?

The error in your understanding is implied in this last sentence. The studies that look at different groups and find the highest antibody levels and/or efficacy in the convalescents with one shot never bother to look at a convalescent group with two shots. Or they lump the those with two in with those with one in the previously infected group. This is because the purpose of those studies is to find out if "we" can stretch the doses most effectively by giving previously infected people either zero or one shot each.

In other words, those studies are not looking to see if your friend will get more immunity from the second shot. He almost certainly will. Whether that's needed or not, and whether it's a good policy or not, are different questions. First you have to get the facts right.

[old goat]

So my lone unvaxed friend said he got Moderna shot 1 yesterday (after he got back from tripping balls for four days at Phish at the Gorge). He's a teacher and is mandated to get both doses. He's previously had COVID (confirmed via test and symptoms). He read the study that shows those with the most robust antibodies are those previously infected with COVID and one shot of Moderna. He rather just get the one shot, but State of WA is making him get shot 2.

I thought the general premise of vaccines is that the we only give people the bare minimum of the vaccine to get the result we want (or at least we strive for this, more or less). So why is WA making people like my friend get shot number 2? Is there any potential harm (both morally and/or medically) from getting vaccines that don't increase your immunity?

Because the data isn't definitive on the subject--there are only so many clinical studies you can run at once in the middle of a pandemic-- and because the state doesn't to try to keep track of who needs one shot and who needs two. If the second shot had any but the most trivial degree of risk it would be different. Besides--the state tracking who has had covid and doesn't need a second shot sounds like an infringement on people's privacy and freedom, no?

And who says the second shot has no medical value. That also is yet to be determined. Like boosters. Again, again, again I remind you that most childhood vaccines require 3 to 5 doses. TDP requires a booster every 10 years for life. I'm not saying we should be giving boosters without evidence either. But given the degree of medical knowledge we have currently and given the logistical difficulties of trying to individualize care in a pandemic, I have no problem with WA's policy

[wooley12]

Hey doc, the patient is delusional

[KQ]

Woman arrested with fake 'Maderna' vaccine card at Honolulu airport, officials say

[bennymac]

I feel morally injured just reading some of the stupid shit posted in this thread - especially from people “doing their own research”. Can I sue some of you? Maybe file it in Texas?

[XXX-er]

this ^^ just highlights the problems in the educational process

sure speling is really hard but one only needs to be smart enough to use spell check

[skaredshtles]

Comment section absolutely full of people posting nonsense.
We’re fucked man…holy shit.

Pro-tip: Never read the comments.

[old goat]

Hey doc, the patient is delusional

No. He asked a legitimate question that deserves a legitimate answer. I understand where he's coming from but that doesn't make the question less valid.
The best way to answer an obviously pointed, semi-rhetorical question is with a straightforward, factual answer.

[wooley12]

Whatever. My statement stands.

[mfcf13]

So my lone friend said...

QFT

[ill-advised strategy]

Woman arrested with fake 'Maderna' vaccine card at Honolulu airport, officials say

[twat]

Thread drift. Back in maybe the 90's it was discovered that levamisole, another veterinary dewormer, was effective against colon cancer. Suddenly the price went from pennies a pill to 100's of dollars--although the research proving it's effectiveness was not done by the manufacturer. It was later withdrawn from human use due to side effects. I don't recall what regulatory steps were taken. I believe the drug had been previously FDA approved for human use for worms so no further FDA action was needed for off-label use.

Levamisole is in 99% of the cocaine patches analized in austria.
It is most likely already mixed in the product in south america before shipping.

Does anybody know the longterm side affects of levamisole snorted through the nose know? I mean like in 10years from now?

[XXX-er]

she got caught by a misspelled official document is the point, what kind of a moran would not check the spelling on an official document ?

again its the breakdown in the educational system

[ill-advised strategy]

she got caught by a misspelled official document is the point, what kind of a moran would not check the spelling on an official document ?

again its the breakdown in the educational system

She prolly didnt even go to collegge

[Tri-Ungulate]

Because the data isn't definitive on the subject--there are only so many clinical studies you can run at once in the middle of a pandemic-- and because the state doesn't to try to keep track of who needs one shot and who needs two. If the second shot had any but the most trivial degree of risk it would be different. Besides--the state tracking who has had covid and doesn't need a second shot sounds like an infringement on people's privacy and freedom, no?

And who says the second shot has no medical value. That also is yet to be determined.

With absolutely no data to support this, my suspicion as a TRG dentist with some moderate immunology larnin' (from the interwebz, of course) is that the 2nd shot after initial infection and 1st shot may not add much, as per the "law of diminishing returns" we often see in the immune response. Prolly safe, maybe a bit more protection, risk:benefit ratio completely undetermined, but since risk is minimal, likely favoring benefit by a miniscule margin.

To address AS's original question, there is a mild moral negative of getting the 2nd shot due to the scarcity argument.

Many of the studies investigating effectiveness of the SARS CoV2 vaccine boosters are based on surrogate markers of efficacy, such as antibody titre and/or T-cell response in vitro, both of which only crudely replicate what actually happens in our bodies when exposed to an actionable antigen.

Funny OG should bring up levamisole - it isn't used for colorectal adjuvant chemo anymore, as a lot of the data that proposed its effectiveness was based on preclinical models that are now mostly discounted, and serious side effects were not insignificant (much like ivermectin, which ironically is a similar agent at least in terms of immunomodulary antihelmithic drugs). In fact, like any lie that has a grain of truth in it, ivermectin did have an interesting signal for T-cell activation in preclinical cell culture studies in re: anti-SARS CoV2 activity.

Almost certainly no major long term side effects of levamisole if you done snorted it 10 years ago.

[bennymac]

[summit]

Comment section absolutely full of people posting nonsense.
We’re fucked man…holy shit.

Looking in the comments section of online news is like peering into a pit toilet the morning after a camping holiday. What did you expect to see?

[old goat]

Levamisole is in 99% of the cocaine patches analized in austria.

They stick cocaine up their butts in Austria? Why?

[old goat]

With absolutely no data to support this, my suspicion as a TRG dentist with some moderate immunology larnin' (from the interwebz, of course) is that the 2nd shot after initial infection and 1st shot may not add much, as per the "law of diminishing returns" we often see in the immune response. Prolly safe, maybe a bit more protection, risk:benefit ratio completely undetermined, but since risk is minimal, likely favoring benefit by a miniscule margin.

To address AS's original question, there is a mild moral negative of getting the 2nd shot due to the scarcity argument.

Many of the studies investigating effectiveness of the SARS CoV2 vaccine boosters are based on surrogate markers of efficacy, such as antibody titre and/or T-cell response in vitro, both of which only crudely replicate what actually happens in our bodies when exposed to an actionable antigen.

Funny OG should bring up levamisole - it isn't used for colorectal adjuvant chemo anymore, as a lot of the data that proposed its effectiveness was based on preclinical models that are now mostly discounted, and serious side effects were not insignificant (much like ivermectin, which ironically is a similar agent at least in terms of immunomodulary antihelmithic drugs). In fact, like any lie that has a grain of truth in it, ivermectin did have an interesting signal for T-cell activation in preclinical cell culture studies in re: anti-SARS CoV2 activity.

Almost certainly no major long term side effects of levamisole if you done snorted it 10 years ago.

Thank you for the actual science.
Question for you or anyone (Mofro?) who knows--are the vaccine schedules for vaccines--the routine childhood and adult shots--based on those surrogate markers or on in vivo clinical studies?

[bennymac]

legal editorial from a Canuck for all you law talkin guys and gals

Why vaccination discrimination is perfectly legal and not a human rights violation

https://financialpost.com/fp-work/ho...0pIOr7S_0v06sQ

“ Most people believe that human rights are broadly based and that it is illegal to discriminate between employees. This again is untrue. It is only illegal to discriminate based on the very few grounds prescribed in human rights legislation such as age, physical disability, gender and race. Most human rights legislation have about 16 such grounds.”

[Bunion 2020]

Looking in the comments section of online news is like peering into a pit toilet the morning after a Mexican night dinner camping holiday. What did you expect to see?

FIFY

[frorider]

They stick cocaine up their butts in Austria? Why?

Ask Brett Kavanaugh. Pretty sure he did it in collegge

[XXX-er]

They stick cocaine up their butts in Austria? Why?

cuz the white powder on the nose was a dead giveaway

unless you are a cop in which case you were just eating donuts

[dunfree]

They stick cocaine up their butts in Austria? Why?

smuggling, duh. The white powder down south pays for your trip to the white powder down south.