To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

**RShea** · 10-10-2021, 10:18 AM

So with the approval of booster shots- anyone care to discuss if there are any studies or trials for benefits of the first shot being J&J and then going over and getting a Pfizer or Moderna mRNA after getting their J&J (with of course a period of time between)? Or vice versa having gotten Pfizer or Moderna 2 shot and then booster with a J&J non mRNA?

Is it a case of being tied to the brand and shot that you first got?

**seano732** · 10-10-2021, 10:26 AM

The number is up to 861 …..LA City Firefighters sue over vax mandate, asking for $2 million each….. JFC.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...accine-mandate

**up an down** · 10-10-2021, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by RShea

So with the approval of booster shots- anyone care to discuss if there are any studies or trials for benefits of the first shot being J&J and then going over and getting a Pfizer or Moderna mRNA after getting their J&J (with of course a period of time between)? Or vice versa having gotten Pfizer or Moderna 2 shot and then booster with a J&J non mRNA?

Is it a case of being tied to the brand and shot that you first got?

I received a booster shot 3 days ago.. Pfizer again as my first vaccine was Pfizer.. I wasn't given a choice to receive Moderna or J&J

**SumJongGuy** · 10-10-2021, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by seano732

The number is up to 861 …..LA City Firefighters sue over vax mandate, asking for $2 million each….. JFC.
https://www.latimes.com/california/s...accine-mandate

It's a cult

**MultiVerse** · 10-10-2021, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

https://www.technologyreview.com/202...isinformation/

"Unfortunately, as Jeffrey Morris at UPenn points out, public health officials and scientists have done plenty to undermine their own authority, like claiming masks don’t work, downplaying the natural immunity conveyed by previous covid infections, and not doing enough public communication about vaccine safety surveillance systems.
”We don’t want to feed the anti-vaccine trolls, so we actively suppress clear scientific data. Now we’ve lost the high ground,” Morris told me.
And that is what has allowed Kirsch, and people like him, to become so influential. It’s a cycle that feeds mistrust and boosts the profiles of influencers who present themselves in opposition to official authorities.
“The collateral damage is that, now, a lot of people don’t trust scientific leaders or the scientific community. They’re finding alternative leaders to follow,” Morris said. “That’s what creates some of these heroes.”"

I don't know, folks here have posted articles with similar themes about how the only way to beat anti-vaccine trolls is by openly and honestly discussing vaccine data. How scientists need to be honest about what they know and what they don’t know regardless of the “message” it sends. All of that's true....

The problem is science evolves over time. That means change and change creates opportunity for anti-vaccine trolls. After all, as we see all the time here, it's not like the trolls incorporate nuance into their talking points. It's always along the lines of experts were wrong about masks so they're wrong about this too.

As with Kirsch in your article who thinks he's always the smartest person in the room, the problem is not solely disinformation/propaganda, the problem is a self delusion of importance. People are seeking to be valued, important, special. Joining with a minority fills this need. No amount of data will change their minds if they believe. No egomaniac like Kirsch can resist leading a following of true believers.

**jono** · 10-10-2021, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

FWIW, while such a regimen is not approved in the U.S., in other countries J&J or AZ followed by an mRNA 2nd dose appears more effective than two doses of mRNA (but not the other way around).

Did you have a link for this?

**MultiVerse** · 10-10-2021, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by RShea

So with the approval of booster shots- anyone care to discuss if there are any studies or trials for benefits of the first shot being J&J and then going over and getting a Pfizer or Moderna mRNA after getting their J&J (with of course a period of time between)? Or vice versa having gotten Pfizer or Moderna 2 shot and then booster with a J&J non mRNA?

Is it a case of being tied to the brand and shot that you first got?

Originally Posted by jono

Did you have a link for this?

There's a growing body of evidence from both lab results and real world data that an adenovirus-vector vaccine 1st, followed by an mRNA 2nd dose results in a better immune response than 2 doses of the same vaccine type. Presumably the same would hold true for a third dose booster.

Scientists call this strategy heterologous prime boosting where the format of the vaccine is different for a subsequent dose. In the study below heterologous boosting with the Pfizer vaccine is shown to induce higher counts of spike-specific CD4+ and CD8+ T cells and, in particular, high titres of neutralizing antibodies in a test against the SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern (VOCs) alpha, beta, and gamma:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...891-2/fulltext

Real world Canadian data suggests the strategy to delay and mix second doses of COVID-19 vaccines led to strong protection from infection, hospitalization and death — even against the highly contagious delta variant — that could provide lessons for the world:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canad...ines-1.6205993

**Benny Profane** · 10-10-2021, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

It's a cult

If like NYC, a very white cult.

**XXX-er** · 10-10-2021, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by riser3

Just got back from New Brunswick, Canada. If you want to go into a restaurant you have to show proof of vaccination and a government issued ID with a matching name on it.

same in BC, every covid dose was issued to a 9 digit health ID # in the universal HC system, so the gov knows your vax history, this # also gets you into any hospitol

When you walk into any bar or restaurant (wearing your mask of course) they scan your QC which you downloaded to your phone and their system checks the HC data base. They also look at your ID to see if the name matches the QC, they might skip this if they know you well and have scanned you in the past

according to buddy who runs the local craft brew if the establishment doesn't play by the rules they could lose their bar or restaurant license until this current edict is over sometime in january and keep in mind vax friendly people will turn you in

so you can't go into a sit-down bar or restaurant without a vax/ mask and pretty soon you won't be able to take a boat/ plane/ train

**old goat** · 10-10-2021, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

I don't know, folks here have posted articles with similar themes about how the only way to beat anti-vaccine trolls is by openly and honestly discussing vaccine data. How scientists need to be honest about what they know and what they don’t know regardless of the “message” it sends. All of that's true....

The problem is science evolves over time. That means change and change creates opportunity for anti-vaccine trolls. After all, as we see all the time here, it's not like the trolls incorporate nuance into their talking points. It's always along the lines of experts were wrong about masks so they're wrong about this too.

As with Kirsch in your article who thinks he's always the smartest person in the room, the problem is not solely disinformation/propaganda, the problem is a self delusion of importance. People are seeking to be valued, important, special. Joining with a minority fills this need. No amount of data will change their minds if they believe. No egomaniac like Kirsch can resist leading a following of true believers.

The antivaxers are going to misunderstand, misquote, and misuse anything scientists say so they might as well state the facts, change the message as the data changes, and let the chips fall where they may.

Originally Posted by XXX-er

same in BC, every covid dose was issued to a 9 digit health ID # in the universal HC system, so the gov knows your vax history, this # also gets you into any hospitol

When you walk into any bar or restaurant (wearing your mask of course) they scan your QC which you downloaded to your phone and their system checks the HC data base. They also look at your ID to see if the name matches the QC, they might skip this if they know you well and have scanned you in the past

according to buddy who runs the local craft brew if the establishment doesn't play by the rules they could lose their bar or restaurant license until this current edict is over sometime in january and keep in mind vax friendly people will turn you in

so you can't go into a sit-down bar or restaurant without a vax/ mask and pretty soon you won't be able to take a boat/ plane/ train

A virologist, a politician, and an antivaxer walk into a bar . . .

**MultiVerse** · 10-10-2021, 12:00 PM

Following up on the vaccine related myocarditis discussion — it's very rare and usually mild. The vast majority of cases are mild and people recover quickly:

The risk of developing inflammation of the heart muscle after receiving the Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is very low, according to two large studies from Israel. The studies indicate that teenage boys and young men are most at risk of developing the condition, known as myocarditis. But even in this group, the vast majority of cases are mild and people recover quickly.

In one study1 of more than 5 million people who had received the Pfizer–BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, 136 developed myocarditis. The other study2, of more than 2.5 million people who received the shot, identified just 54 cases of myocarditis.

Ran Balicer, a co-author of the second study and an epidemiologist at Israel’s largest health-care provider, Clalit Health Services in Tel Aviv, hopes the findings will “help alleviate some of the worries around the risks associated with vaccination in the younger age groups and put an appropriate clinical context to them”.

Myocarditis concerns have fuelled anti-vaccine sentiments and influenced decisions about giving messenger RNA vaccines to children in the United Kingdom, Denmark and Sweden.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02740-y

**mcski** · 10-10-2021, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by old goat

The antivaxers are going to misunderstand, misquote, and misuse anything scientists say so they might as well state the facts, change the message as the data changes, and let the chips fall where they may.
. .

Hasn’t that been done for the most part? Other than maybe the initial mask kerfluffel...

**SumJongGuy** · 10-10-2021, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by mcski

Hasn’t that been done for the most part? Other than maybe the initial mask kerfluffel...

There was the initial mask kerflufal which I still think had more to do with ensuring that healthcare workers had the good ones first before everyone ran out and hoarded them all instead of toilet paper.. All because Trump sent all our PPE reserves to China.

There was also the 2 minute dropping of mask mandates everywhere around the 4th of July only to find out the vaccine didn't protect folks from Delta infection and spreading nearly as well as we had hoped.. so mask they tried to put the mandates back up and red states said fuck that shit.. Bla bla blaa Fauci was wrong about that for a second so vaccines are worthless mentality..

**MultiVerse** · 10-10-2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by old goat

The antivaxers are going to misunderstand, misquote, and misuse anything scientists say so they might as well state the facts, change the message as the data changes, and let the chips fall where they may.

While I agree as a matter of principle, it's a little aphoristic, and aphorisms are only easy to understand when you skip the explanations. It’s sort of like saying "trust the science" when knowing how to spot bad scientific "facts" is really important:

Must adjust properly for confounders and selection bias
Not all science is equal
Conflicts of interest exist
Correlation does not always mean causation
Small sample sizes can 'prove' almost anything
Including just one bad study can turn meta-analysis into fraud
No control / blind / randomization can introduce all kinds of bias
In vitro vs in vivo can cause people to overdose on horse dewormer

**XXX-er** · 10-10-2021, 01:02 PM

no printed story yet but according to the radio BC is asking parents of 5-12 yr olds to register for a vax

**XXX-er** · 10-10-2021, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by old goat

A virologist, a politician, and an antivaxer walk into a bar . . .

not without a mask, a QC code and picture ID

just like getting carded as a teenager

**riser4** · 10-10-2021, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

I think, with antivax outcasts, every level has something problematic for the rest of us. From interaction with the community for basic sustenance needs, to employment, to family and recreation and social pursuits, to the kind of activist mission mindset stuff that might crop up with self actualization. It’s all problematic when you insert a desperate, infectious, resentful outcast into it.

The problem is how do we integrate the antisocial psychopaths into a decent society that is worth being part of?

**SumJongGuy** · 10-10-2021, 01:32 PM

My daughter's mask mandated high school just agreed to bring in a vendor to test students every two weeks (even those without any symptoms). I think it's for a study of some kind so 100% funded costing the schools nothing.. I asked my 17 year old if she wanted to participate and she's all in. I expected that response and an happy to have smart kids.

Meanwhile remember when the idiots were trying to poison the well by arguing if/why 6 feet was THE safe distance?? How do you fix that kind of stupid??

**old goat** · 10-10-2021, 01:41 PM

The dangerous folks in the military are the radical right wingers who will get the shot to stay in.

**Bunion 2020** · 10-10-2021, 03:36 PM

Allen West, an unvaccinated Texas governor candidate, railed against "dangerous" COVID-19 vaccines while hospitalized with the coronavirus on Sunday.
Allen West, who is unvaccinated and running for Texas governor, called COVID-19 vaccines “dangerous” while he was hospitalized with the virus on Sunday.

West, a Republican, announced Saturday that he was taking hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, which has not been approved to treat the virus. At the time, he said he was experiencing a low-grade fever and light body aches.

By Sunday, he was hospitalized with possible COVID-related pneumonia, he tweeted. He described his symptoms, saying his oxygen levels had slipped to 85, but had hit a normal range of 94 to 96 by Sunday. He was hospitalized at Medical City in Plano, north of Dallas.

West's wife Angela, who is vaccinated and also tested positive for the virus, underwent monoclonal antibody therapy but had been released from the hospital, he said.

He doubled down on his stance against vaccine mandates Sunday, writing that as governor, he would "vehemently crush anyone forcing vaccine mandates in the Lone Star State."

"I can attest that, after this experience, I am even more dedicated to fighting against vaccine mandates. Instead of enriching the pockets of Big Pharma and corrupt bureaucrats and politicians, we should be advocating the monoclonal antibody infusion therapy," he wrote.

He added, "Instead of jabbing Americans, and not illegal immigrants, with a dangerous shot which injects them with these spike proteins...guess what? I now have natural immunity and double the antibodies, and that's science."

Twitter users were quick to point out that monoclonal antibody treatments were both created by the pharmaceutical industry and are much more expensive than the COVID-19 vaccination, which has been scientifically proven to prevent serious illness from the virus.

Regeneron's two-drug cocktail costs $1,250 per infusion, according to Healthline. Each dose of the COVID-19 vaccine is much cheaper, at only $20. Both treatments are paid for by the federal government, but the cocktail costs 62.5 times more than the vaccine.

GSK and Vir's monoclonal antibody costs $2,100 per infusion and is paid for by government payments, reimbursements, and GSK's copay program, according to Healthline.

Can't make this shit up.

**frorider** · 10-10-2021, 03:36 PM

Speaking of myocarditis…

A preprint study stated that 1 in 1,000 recipients of the COVID-19 vaccine could get myocarditis.

The study has been withdrawn after a miscalculation overestimated the risk of the heart condition.

The COVID-19 vaccine is safe to get, and there is more risk of getting myocarditis from COVID-19 than the jab.

….

The study was first published on September 16 and conducted by researchers at The University of Ottawa Heart Institute. It was widely used to promote the idea that the COVID-19 vaccine is unsafe for use.

**skiJ** · 10-10-2021, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by skiJ

yeah ( yes ) - I figured it was something like that - your posts are pretty thoughtful -

I won't ( - I hope - ) engage beyond covid -
I am not a historian - and I see some of the information going in directions that then need to be refuted -

an early post talked about vaccinating for tuberculosis ( that would be news to me ).

currently the idea of myocarditis / myopericarditis is getting a lot of attention ( regarding vaccination ) -

myocarditis was diagnosed as a condition associated with covid ;
I find One case reportedly associated with vaccination - and that is in a group from ages 12 - 39
( there are lots of causes of myocarditis in adults ) - -

myocarditis as possibly being associated with "chest pain" in otherwise healthy young males - 'without (any) follow-up' and without a definitive diagnosis, ,,, seems like a stretch to me
( I looked hard yesterday for an abstract that explains the 'nordic' decision to restrict Moderna. yesterday, I found nothing more than 'abundance of caution' -

from experience, I know several ( sometimes many ) factors go into a decision like that ) --

finally, Thank you - I debated including in my previous post -

vaccinate to reduce the spread of covid - to protect your community and broader society -

it is not just about individual immunity...

it's kind of sad - goat has eloquently presented the importance of Vaccination to the health of humans over the last (century ( I have it at about eighty years. goat did not define his time-frame. )
but we now have such a short attention span, and at least in the USofA, such an individual focus, ,,, . . .

I will look again tomorrow -

to try to close on a Positive note,
the numbers are (slowly) 'inching(sic. USA )' upward. as communities adopt 'mandates' and policies, the 'test-out' option becomes less attractive -

I don't know that North America will ever have population immunity - but we are moving (strongly) to being able to resist deadly disease with effective vaccination (for covid) -

perhaps a hopeful step. !

again, thank you for your thoughtful contributions to this thread -

respectfully. tj

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...dlbing&pc=U531

https://www.lakemedelsverket.se/sv/n...och-perikardit

https://www.lakemedelsverket.se/sv/n...a-biverkningar

https://omaha.com/news/world/sweden-...671a441bc.html

so. this is the information I found pertaining to the 'Nordic' restrictions on Moderna -

the second and third links are in Swedish that translated to English for me with a right-click drop-down...

data is from Sweden in July ; interestingly ( to me ) there were 7x (seven times) the number of reports of myocarditis associated with Pfizer than with Moderna, though I do not seen How Many total doses of each was given ( in Sweden ) -
my understanding from the first link, is this is ( Swedish / european ) data --

there is a report up-thread that Moderna offered dramatically fewer doses of vaccine for economically-disadvantaged countries for world-wide distribution
( considerations like this may impact decisions like whether the use of a vaccine is ( restricted / not-recommended ) ,,, by a government agency. ...

( I think I worded that reasonably ) )

There is an interesting discussion up-thread about how to include people with ,,, unusual beliefs in society -

I believe this is an important consideration, and the sort of things that I really try to avoid., but

I would ask if the 2016 presidential election is an unusual example (?)

( obviously that discussion is not appropriate for this thread ( and Maybe not even Padded Room ), but as society seems determined to be more committed to our divisions / differences, we are going to have to find ways to interact effectively and productively ,,, or the conflict will escalate -

I am not a historian - but last year just felt to me like some kind of '1968-revisited' , ,,, I don't know - -

so. Swedish study. Swedish data -
Very rare incidence, But enough that some countries ( Sweden, Denmark, and Finland ) are limiting the use of Moderna ( Spikevax ) in males Under 30.

That's what I found Today ( October 10 (2021) though the data is from July 2021 )

Thanks for (listening) -

I still recommend Vaccination for slowing the spread of covid - especially as I am hearing more reports of 'breakthrough' infections in vaccinated persons
( I will be looking for a booster six months after my second dose ( I face potential elevated risk of exposure holiday week ) )

respectfully. tj

**skiJ** · 10-10-2021, 04:16 PM

Allen West, candidate for governor of Texas -

' He doubled down on his stance against vaccine mandates Sunday, writing that as governor, he would "vehemently crush anyone forcing vaccine mandates in the Lone Star State."

"I can attest that, after this experience, I am even more dedicated to fighting against vaccine mandates. Instead of enriching the pockets of Big Pharma and corrupt bureaucrats and politicians, we should be advocating the monoclonal antibody infusion therapy," he wrote.

He added, "Instead of jabbing Americans, and not illegal immigrants, with a dangerous shot which injects them with these spike proteins...guess what? I now have natural immunity and double the antibodies, and that's science." '

to the question of the day about including people with unusual beliefs in society -

vaccine containing "spike proteins" ( first I have heard ), double antibodies, "... and that's science." ?

my understanding - supported by some of the References cited up-thread - is Tcells and Bcells are important to effective, sustained resistance to disease and infection --

I have never understood the belief that post-infection immunity is preferable, Because of the Risks of covid ( including death. )
Maybe If I was twenty years old... But given the clinical disease that is now being seen in demographic groups that were previously believed to be a 'low risk' from covid. . . and

isn't Science ultimately about assessment of Risk, Risk management, and prevention of disease ? ?

Bunion is correct - ' you can't make this (stuff) up. '

tj

**Tri-Ungulate** · 10-10-2021, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by skiJ

"Instead of enriching the pockets of Big Pharma and corrupt bureaucrats and politicians, we should be advocating the monoclonal antibody infusion therapy,"