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  1. #15201
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    Know what has proven it can definitely have LOTS of severe long term effects? COVID
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  2. #15202
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    I agree with all of the above. But we do we know all the long term effects of Genetically Modified Organisms, micro-plastics, 6PPD-quinone (a chemical currently used in tires that is killing all the salmon, and probably humans too)?

    I think peoples' inherit (although incorrect) distrust in the vaccines is a culmination of decades of governments telling us things are ok when in fact, they may not be ok.
    Associating concerns about environmental pollution with vaccines doesn't make sense because the health risks due to airborne pollution from tires are well documented. To say that because some of these things are known to cause harm we're going to ignore the known knowns and focus on the unknowns is a strange hill for anti-vaxxers to die on.

  3. #15203
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    I think peoples' inherit (although incorrect) distrust in the vaccines is a culmination of decades of governments telling us things are ok when in fact, they may not be ok.
    cough cough DDT cough cough


  4. #15204
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Altasnob: please quantify the benefit to a five year old of growing up with grandparents vs. the cost of growing up to learn that as a child they were the vector that passed the disease on.

    I know a couple such kids and their cousins. They were all quite traumatized by the funeral. The ones that probably brought it home to dad, grandpa and grandma are too young to understand but plenty old enough to remember. Someday they'll probably know.

    People seem to think masks represent some serious risk to kids, too. Maybe. But the risk that we know about for sure is definitely worse.
    Dayum, son. You're giving the Catholic church a run for its money in the guilt department!

  5. #15205
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    A lot of people probably have MFCrayonEater on ignore, but the titles on his video are hilarious and certainly proves whatever point he was trying to make with his clever whattaboutism video.

    DO YOU TRUST THE GOVENMENT?

    THE GOVENMENT SAYS
    DDT SO SAFE,YOU CAN EAT IT
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  6. #15206
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Know what has proven it can definitely have LOTS of severe long term effects? COVID
    This. Full approval for 5-12 means we'll be waiting until the middle of next year for what amounts to paper shuffling and red tape. Personally, I'm ready to get the kid vaxxed and finally let my guard down a bit.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  7. #15207
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Obviously difficult to quantify. It's also difficult to quantify the loss a parent and grandparent feels when their perfectly healthy kid dies after getting vaccinated.

    It is also difficult the quantify the benefit of the vaccine vs. the risk of COVID. Today, we don't know all the long term risk of the vaccine, just like we don't know the long term risks of COVID. I trust the powers that be to do their best when they make recommendations. But as a youngish person (at least on TGR) who is increasingly frustrated with modern capitalism, where the rich just keep on getting richer as the earth continually gets fucked, it's getting increasingly hard to trust the powers that be. How much have Moderna, Pfizer, and J & J shareholders and executives made during the pandemic? Young people feel the CDC and FDA are just in cahoots with these drug companies and Wall Street. This pandemic has fucked up the earth and it's not because of stubborn anti-vaxers. The stock market keeps making the rich get richer, housing is through the roof, the environment is in shambles. If you are ignoring these concerns you are out of touch with how young people are thinking. Grandpa had his chance to make the world a better place and they failed.

    (placeholding to comment )

    altasnob -

    'quantifying' the loss of a relative is a non-starter -
    it is worth nothing, And it is priceless. Just don't take that bait - -

    Some of the rest of your conundrum is not without merit - But

    (but) I believe it is misguided to blame "grandpa" And I do not believe Vaccination for covid is the better target for the argument(s) - -

    I am not sure how you believe the pandemic has damaged the Earth... (?)

    capitalism ? capitalism - in a Nation where the national debt approaches thirty Trillion -

    capitalism is broken. or the republic is broke-n. . . ( to say nothing about democracy )


    "grandfather" ? . . . I think you need to define 'grandfather's generation -

    My grandfather's have been dead since 1977 ( and were born in the 1800s ) -

    my ancestors were part of amazing eras in History - I have far greater concerns about current generations and how last year seemed so very similar to 1968...

    What has my generation done ( what have I done to improve the world ( twenty years in Afganistan (?) did we not learn anything from the Soviet Union (?) seven Trillion dollars... ) (?)

    "young people" (?) What have we taught them... (?) ( to communicate electronically (?) to Be ( insulated. from people around them (?) )


    luckily, Many young people still have time. . .


    there is a lot of conspiracy in your post(s), altasnob -


    This thread is about Vaccination for covid -
    . . . I believe the products have been tested and found to be Very safe ( but not perfectly Safe )
    I do not believe the covid vaccines have caused any deaths in children ( in part, Because the only children who have received the vaccination have been in the clinical trials. ... )

    I do not believe your claim that children are going to be killed (through vaccination) to extend the lives of elders has merit.


    Vaccination has merit --


    Enough for now.


    Good luck -


    respectfully. tj
    Last edited by skiJ; 10-08-2021 at 03:45 PM.

  8. #15208
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Dayum, son. You're giving the Catholic church a run for its money in the guilt department!
    I certainly hope not. But if you think today's kids are going to grow up without studying these years in history classes, I think you're mistaken. That would be some weird cancel culture. If we do pull out of this widespread denial it's going to come with some uncomfortable realizations, and some of those will probably err to the unreasonable, whether that's guilt or blaming their parents for not putting masks on them. I hear baby boomers had plenty of parent blame.

    But maybe we'll just stick with the denial. Texas curriculum committees FTW?
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
    with wrong ideas that appeal to you, though I am not unkind."

  9. #15209
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    How did skidog get Altasnobs password?
    Samuel L. Jackson as Jules Winnfield: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration?

  10. #15210
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Obviously no one in their family is going to tell them. Unfortunately it's already been discussed because the factual basis is the order in which symptoms appeared. I hope it hasn't been discussed within earshot of their generation, but I don't really know--people say things without attributing blame that kids reinterpret later.
    Yea I hear you.

    Sorry, a bit cunty today, need to stop TGR’ing at work.

  11. #15211
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Why has Sweden, Denmark, and Finland paused Moderna for men under 30? Are they smoking crack?
    Why are those countries still recommending the Pfizer vaccine for that age group?
    what's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

  12. #15212
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    I think it is because Pfizer is a smaller dose but smart people can answer. Personally, I trust the governments of Sweden, Denmark, and Finland more than the US.

    All three countries based their decision on an unpublished study with Sweden’s Public Health Agency saying that it signals “an increased risk of side effects such as inflammation of the heart muscle or the pericardium” — the double-walled sac containing the heart and the roots of the main vessels. It added: “The risk of being affected is very small.”

  13. #15213
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    They're doing it out of an abundance of caution because they have more Pfizer data: “Based on the precautionary principle, we will in future only invite children and young people to receive [the Pfizer] vaccine, not least in view of the fact that it is for this vaccine that the largest amount of data from use exists for children and young people, especially from the USA and Israel,” -- Bolette Soeborg, Swedish health authority


    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Personally, I trust the governments of Sweden, Denmark, and Finland more than the US.
    It's ironic then that their decision is based in large part on data from the United States and Israel.

  14. #15214
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I don't believe the myocarditis data came from VAERS--but pausing a vaccine while further analysis and study is done would be the perfect use of VAERS. That is exactly what it is for.
    Getting rid of or significantly restricting VAERS because some ignorant, malignant people choose to use it the wrong way would be a mistake. I am sick and tired of people saying that this or that information should not be released or this or that decision shouldn't be made because some people will take it the wrong way, or use it the wrong way, or become confused. People do not lose confidence in leaders and experts when they state the facts or explain their decisions clearly, straightforwardly, and confidently. They lose confident when the leaders and experts sound defensive or wishy washy or uncertain. And by uncertain I don't mean they should hide what they don't know, but that they should sound confident in what they do know and open about what they don't.



    Straw man. There is no one suggesting that children should receive a covid vaccine if trials show that more children are harmed by the vaccine than are helped. I am not aware of any vaccine that has ever been given that deliberately caused more harm than good to the targeted individuals in the interest of the benefit to society.

    It is important to consider the time factor in analyzing vaccine trials. While a bad reaction to a vaccine almost always occurs soon after the vaccination the benefit goes on for months or years or for life--so while the risk does not increase over time the benefit does.

    And BTW, maybe if VAERS had been around fewer children would have been paralyzed or died from the bad batch of Cutter polio vaccine.

    As far as your last post above--not worth commented on.

    goat -

    the 'data' that was cited last weekend in USofA studies, warning of myocarditis in young males was attributed to VAERS' database -

    If you are (talking) about the Swedish study, I looked for that information this morning, and found no report that included a link to the study, or an abstract for the study. ...

    another poster has expressed concern about the abuse of the VAERS database -
    given the credence that was given to studies that were based on statistical analysis from the VAERS database, I agree that input to the database should not be Open to the public - And
    the idea that such (unpredictable. I have another term in mind ) 'data' / information might be used to slow implementation of the development of something like the covid vaccine. . .

    no.

    I will be glad to cite the studies I found and cited last Saturday -
    IF you are saying the Swedish study is not based on the North American VAERS 'data' / information ,
    I wish you had been clearer about that -

    regarding leadership and decisiveness, I think we only have to look at the last two years to see neither approach is perfect -

    personally, I would rather be told that something is not yet known, than to find out our 'confident' leader lied, Because the lie supported the politician's position.


    in the articles about myocarditis in North America, such symptoms as chest pain were included with no diagnosis and "no follow up" to create statistical models that claimed 'myocarditis' at a rate and range of 6 (six) / 100,000 to (162.2) / 100,000 - depending on the keywords that included data-points from the database.
    a Canadian study that sought to support the conclusion has already been withdrawn when the author acknowledged the (data) included was too broad for the conclusions it intended to support.

    only One case of myocarditis was actually documented - and that was from a group ages 12-39 (Thirty-nine. hardly conclusive for those Under 18 ) --


    I think I need to stop there.

    ( some of the other issues do not pertain to me. . . . )


    I will continue to look for Information regarding the European decision ( - and I will comment to that in a subsequent response )

    thanks for (listening) -

    with due respect. tj

  15. #15215
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Why has Sweden, Denmark, and Finland paused Moderna for men under 30? Are they smoking crack?
    - many comments to this above -

    I believe the idea that there is more data surrounding the Pfizer vaccination has merit - but I would leave open any conclusion about the source (Country of origin) of that information -

    ultimately, it does come down to Multi-'s citation of the idea of "abundance of caution" , and yet,
    I know from experience that at least several ( if not many ) factors go into such a decision.


    recreational drug use is not one of the acknowledged factors.


    ... wishing you peacefulness. tj

  16. #15216
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    SkiJ--I don't which study you are referring to that refers to statistical analysis of VAERS data. To statistically analyze raw data from VAERS is scientifically irresponsible. One would hope the editors of a reputable peer reviewed journal would agree. A study of cases pulled from VAERS and subject to further investigation and confirmation would be a proper use.

  17. #15217
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    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....30.21262866v1


    post #14871 ( October 3, 2021 )

    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I haven't followed this completely (this time), but is the referenced study the same one where the "researchers" used data from VAERS and the CDC's definition of "likely" myocarditis (as in more likely than not...51% chance...not a clinical diagnosis) to come up with their numbers? Because the numbers listed sure sound familiar. That study was crap in more ways than one, but doubling the number of myocarditis cases is a pretty big one.

    If this is a different study, please disregard.



    yes, I believe it is it is that 'study' - a data collection that identified key words in documents.

    Find link in the Guardian article, or,

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....30.21262866v1



    tj

  18. #15218
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    that covid denying pro hockey player from Edmonton was found to have covid antibodies and was suffering from Myocarditis

    I wonder if he is still a covid denyier ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  19. #15219
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....30.21262866v1


    post #14871 ( October 3, 2021 )

    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I haven't followed this completely (this time), but is the referenced study the same one where the "researchers" used data from VAERS and the CDC's definition of "likely" myocarditis (as in more likely than not...51% chance...not a clinical diagnosis) to come up with their numbers? Because the numbers listed sure sound familiar. That study was crap in more ways than one, but doubling the number of myocarditis cases is a pretty big one.

    If this is a different study, please disregard.



    yes, I believe it is it is that 'study' - a data collection that identified key words in documents.

    Find link in the Guardian article, or,

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....30.21262866v1



    tj
    Actually that seems like a reasonable use of VAERS. I only looked at the methodology. It seemed that they used enough filters to extract cases that qualified as myocarditis/pericarditis. They could have missed cases where the qualifying criteria were not included in the report as well as cases not reported, obviously. The main limitation of a study like this is that by changing the filters you can include more non-qualifying cases or exclude more qualifying ones.

    As far as the conclusions reached by the authors I've commented before.

  20. #15220
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    COVID-19 causes Restless Anal Syndrome.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucele...h=579cf1125bf5




    Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
    "Zee damn fat skis are ruining zee piste !" -Oscar Schevlin

    "Hike up your skirt and grow a dick you fucking crybaby" -what Bunion said to Harry at the top of The Headwaters

  21. #15221
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Actually that seems like a reasonable use of VAERS. I only looked at the methodology. It seemed that they used enough filters to extract cases that qualified as myocarditis/pericarditis. They could have missed cases where the qualifying criteria were not included in the report as well as cases not reported, obviously. The main limitation of a study like this is that by changing the filters you can include more non-qualifying cases or exclude more qualifying ones.

    As far as the conclusions reached by the authors I've commented before.
    They used the CDC definition of "probable myocarditis" and I couldn't find any correction for the probability. Did you see one? Or are you just agreeing with their methodology for extracting the data? Because I think my objections, as previously stated, start after the data is extracted. Not a reason to do away a with VAERS, it's just a reason to do away with the disingenuous....

    A relevant look at myocarditis among the infected (note the more stringent criteria for inclusion):

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34341797/
    Last edited by jono; 10-09-2021 at 09:45 AM.

  22. #15222
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    They used the CDC definition of "probable myocarditis" and I couldn't find any correction for the probability. Did you see one? Or are you just agreeing with their methodology for extracting the data? Because I think my objections, as previously stated, start after the data is extracted. Not a reason to do away a with VAERS, it's just a reason to do away with the disingenuous....

    A relevant look at myocarditis among the infected (note the more stringent criteria for inclusion):

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34341797/
    I'm just agreeing with their methodology for extracting the data. It would be interesting to see Kaiser's numbers for this--when it comes to being able to get numbers for large populations Kaiser is like Sweden--data easily accessible from the electronic medical record, patients with vaccine complications almost certain to return to a Kaiser facility for diagnosis and treatment--even if they go to an outside ER they get transferred to Kaiser.

    Despite the fact that post vaccine myocarditis seems to be self limited--so far--and despite the low risk there's enough evidence to warrant further study, including single dose, and consideration of using J and J for young men (but not for young women) . Nice to have different vaccine options.
    New info keeps coming out, things keep changing.

  23. #15223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    COVID-19 causes Restless Anal Syndrome.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucele...h=579cf1125bf5




    Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
    I posted that one earlier but it didn’t get the attention it deserved because it was buried in all of the troll drama. But I posit that this covid complication may be *why this thread was having so much troll drama 😆

  24. #15224
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    .....


    Straw man. There is no one suggesting that children should receive a covid vaccine if trials show that more children are harmed by the vaccine than are helped. I am not aware of any vaccine that has ever been given that deliberately caused more harm than good to the targeted individuals in the interest of the benefit to society. ..
    Does the analysis of a vax cost benefit take into account the probability of being infected? I would think yes. A dangerous vax for a very dangerous infection I would think that would only use where there was a actaul danger of catching. Whereas smallpox was given of people where there danger of actually going to a place that actually had it was very low.

    So real question- does the analysis today change compared to 9 months ago? 9 months ago covid was less contagious so containment isolation etc was viable for population, whereas now with delta being more contagious and an understanding that will become endemic so the likely hood of being infected is higher. Doesn't that even push the calculus more towards the benefit side of vax vs non vax?
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  25. #15225
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    An example in your first paragraph would be the yellow fever vaccine, which is high enough risk for older people that you can get a medical exemption f you're traveling to an endemic area. I don't know of any other high risk vaccines but maybe there are some.

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