To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[bodywhomper]

Here’s a logical question, at a cellular level, why aren’t the mRNA vaccines 100% effective?

[old goat]

Absolutely! This type of thing was a conjecture-guess with no direct answer in one of these threads a few months ago. Makes a person wonder what might be possible if this effort gets redirected toward cancer next?

It's a lot easier to kill a virus than a cancer cell. A cancer cell is you--anything that attacks it can attack the healthy parts of you. A virus is foreign--the immune system can kill it if the patient doesn't die too quickly.
There's no shortage of effort being made to treat cancer--the potential profits from new cancer drugs are enormous. But it's a tough problem and each type of cancer potentially needs a different treatment.

[LongShortLong]

Probably the US is leveling off and will continue with 40-50k cases per day, and 300-400 deaths per day, for some time to come.

I was promised a much lower CFR now that all the old folks and nursing homes are mostly vaxxed. Looks to be around 1, based off USA numbers, which is lower than the 1.4 of last Fall, but not that much lower. Is the bulk data still distorted by a death overhang from the holiday surge? Maybe a more detailed look at the data (e.g. using proxy CFR = %dead 6 weeks after infection), shows a big decline?

[bodywhomper]

Is it cool to dox people? One of the prominent anti-science-ish, covid is just the flu, anti-vaxers from my community has relocated to sand point. And posts a ton of FB for all to see and comment. She also works in health care. I figure it could be fun for locals to comment and inundate her FB posts during times of drinking (or sobriety).

[GoldMember]

Is it cool to dox people? One of the prominent anti-science-ish, covid is just the flu, anti-vaxers from my community has relocated to sand point. And posts a ton of FB for all to see and comment. She also works in health care. I figure it could be fun for locals to comment and inundate her FB posts during times of drinking (or sobriety).

Well, maybe not doxing but she's putting stuff out publicly on FB so a link isn't doxing, just a link to public statements.

[bodywhomper]

Well, maybe not doxing but she's putting stuff out publicly on FB so a link isn't doxing, just a link to public statements.

Have fun: https://www.facebook.com/shelly.rose.125

She had developed quite the support network in California. A main reason to leave the state was because of the tightening of restrictions related to vaxing in schools

[GoldMember]

Have fun: https://www.facebook.com/shelly.rose.125

She had developed quite the support network in California. A main reason to leave the state was because of the tightening of restrictions related to vaxing in schools

So, she's in Sandpoint, ID now? She'll fit right in with many there. I love Sandpoint but there are definitely some 'out-there' folks.

[MultiVerse]

Absolutely! This type of thing was a conjecture-guess with no direct answer in one of these threads a few months ago. Makes a person wonder what might be possible if this effort gets redirected toward cancer next?

As you probably already know both BioNTech and Moderna are working on mRNA cancer drugs. It's exciting stuff. The idea is you sequence a tumor, isolate the mutations, and then create a unique set of amino acids or tumor-specific antigens to destroy the tumor.

If it works it will be like going from the analog era of medicine to the digital era with mRNA molecules as code. So you're right, if we can harness some of the effort that went into the pandemic and put it towards 'digital' medicine then we could save a lot of lives.

Even all the profits from the Covid vaccines and VC interest might not be enough to accelerate the effort, though, because it takes a lot of time and money to create new drugs. And even when you're first bringing something to market you don't own the market as is often the case with tech. With biology there's numerous approaches to solving a problem so the rewards aren't as massive. That's why I think there's a case to be made for some type of public funding or incentives like there was with Covid vaccines.

[old goat]

As you probably already know both BioNTech and Moderna are working on mRNA cancer drugs. It's exciting stuff. The idea is you sequence a tumor, isolate the mutations, and then create a unique set of amino acids or tumor-specific antigens to destroy the tumor.

If it works it will be like going from the analog era of medicine to the digital era with mRNA molecules as code. So you're right, if we can harness some of the effort that went into the pandemic and put it towards 'digital' medicine then we could save a lot of lives.

Even all the profits from the Covid vaccines and VC interest might not be enough to accelerate the effort, though, because it takes a lot of time and money to create new drugs. And even when you're first bringing something to market you don't own the market as is often the case with tech. With biology there's numerous approaches to solving a problem so the rewards aren't as massive. That's why I think there's a case to be made for some type of public funding or incentives like there was with Covid vaccines.

There are already a number of monoclonal antibody drugs for cancers. Would an mRNA based cancer drug have a significant advantage. Overall the outcomes after monoclonal antibody treatment is not that great. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7551545/
There are some impressive results--Jimmy Carter had an excellent response to monoclonal antibody treatment for melanoma in his brain, perhaps not surprising since melanoma has always been one of the few cancers that sometimes stimulates a strong immune response--melanomas have been known to disappear spontaneously. The problem with immunotherapy is as I said before--there is not enough different between most cancer cells and normal host cells to stimulate a strong immune response. If there were our bodies would fight cancer on its own without help from drugs Or maybe there are cancers that are different enough to be destroyed by the immune system before anyone knows they existed (that's speculation on my part).

I've been hearing how curing cancer with immunotherapy was just around the corner since medical school (early 70's), so I'm a skeptic. But maybe we know enough now to make it work. However, a cancer cell is a hugely more complicated thing than a virus.

[Harry]

Selling fake vaccine cards is a crime. Committing a crime with a concealed gun in your pocket is a mandatory 10 year sentence. It’s best if you make sure the guy buying the fake vaccine card is not an undercover officer. 🤣

https://abcnews.go.com/US/california...ry?id=77512728



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[stealurface831]

Selling fake vaccine cards is a crime. Committing a crime with a concealed gun in your pocket is a mandatory 10 year sentence. It’s best if you make sure the guy buying the fake vaccine card is not an undercover officer. 藍

https://abcnews.go.com/US/california...ry?id=77512728

[bodywhomper]

So, she's in Sandpoint, ID now? She'll fit right in with many there. I love Sandpoint but there are definitely some 'out-there' folks.

Yes! Living there now.

[KQ]

Another 700 people fully vaxxed in W2 today! Woot!

Lots of <18yos.

[Tri-Ungulate]

There are already a number of monoclonal antibody drugs for cancers. Would an mRNA based cancer drug have a significant advantage. Overall the outcomes after monoclonal antibody treatment is not that great. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7551545/
There are some impressive results--Jimmy Carter had an excellent response to monoclonal antibody treatment for melanoma in his brain, perhaps not surprising since melanoma has always been one of the few cancers that sometimes stimulates a strong immune response--melanomas have been known to disappear spontaneously. The problem with immunotherapy is as I said before--there is not enough different between most cancer cells and normal host cells to stimulate a strong immune response. If there were our bodies would fight cancer on its own without help from drugs Or maybe there are cancers that are different enough to be destroyed by the immune system before anyone knows they existed (that's speculation on my part).

I've been hearing how curing cancer with immunotherapy was just around the corner since medical school (early 70's), so I'm a skeptic. But maybe we know enough now to make it work. However, a cancer cell is a hugely more complicated thing than a virus.

You can't make the blanket assertion that "the outcomes after monoclonal antibody treatment is not that great."

As the review you've cited explains, there are several different mechanisms whereby engineered monoclonal antibodies have anticancer activity. The main ways outlined in the review are receptor-or ligand blocking, antibody-dependent cellular cytotoxicity (ADCC), complement-dependent cytotoxicity (CDC) and antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis (ADCP). The review mentions but doesn't fully describe other ways of engineering anticancer monoclonals, such as antibody-drug conjugates, targeting pro-tumorigenic compounds in the microenvironment, targeting immune checkpoint inhibitors (as was used against melanoma in Carter's case), and bispecific T cell engagers (BiTEs).

I won't go into detail about all this, but my point is that monoclonals are a diverse and expanding field and bland assertions about efficacy or lack thereof are just that. It's like saying "outcomes after antibiotic treatment is not that great." The very first engineered anticancer monoclonal rituximab has contributed to the outright cure of untold numbers of non-Hodgkin lymphoma patients since it was first trialed at Stanford a quarter century ago. Carter himself (and hopefully Ruby) may possibly be cured of their CNS melanoma, which in the very recent past was an unequivocal death sentence.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, and tying it to my post, is that yes, mRNA vaccines hold great promise in utilizing the immune system to fight cancer. That being said, I'm not yet as optimistic as MultiVerse in how rapidly and applicably they can be enlisted in the battle.


...and good on ya KQ, keep up the volunteering.

[old goat]

You can't make the blanket assertion that "the outcomes after monoclonal antibody treatment is not that great."

As the review you've cited explains, there are several different mechanisms whereby engineered monoclonal antibodies have anticancer activity. The main ways outlined in the review are receptor-or ligand blocking, antibody-dependent cellular cytotoxicity (ADCC), complement-dependent cytotoxicity (CDC) and antibody-dependent cellular phagocytosis (ADCP). The review mentions but doesn't fully describe other ways of engineering anticancer monoclonals, such as antibody-drug conjugates, targeting pro-tumorigenic compounds in the microenvironment, targeting immune checkpoint inhibitors (as was used against melanoma in Carter's case), and bispecific T cell engagers (BiTEs).

I won't go into detail about all this, but my point is that monoclonals are a diverse and expanding field and bland assertions about efficacy or lack thereof are just that. It's like saying "outcomes after antibiotic treatment is not that great." The very first engineered anticancer monoclonal rituximab has contributed to the outright cure of untold numbers of non-Hodgkin lymphoma patients since it was first trialed at Stanford a quarter century ago. Carter himself (and hopefully Ruby) may possibly be cured of their CNS melanoma, which in the very recent past was an unequivocal death sentence.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, and tying it to my post, is that yes, mRNA vaccines hold great promise in utilizing the immune system to fight cancer. That being said, I'm not yet as optimistic as MultiVerse in how rapidly and applicably they can be enlisted in the battle.


...and good on ya KQ, keep up the volunteering.

I quote from the article: "Although mAb therapy has proven successful in the treatment of cancer, clinical resistance to these agents continues to be a major issue. Only a minority of patients will respond, with the vast majority developing refractory disease within one year ."

When it comes to cancer treatment of any kind what is considered success by researchers and oncologists is disappointing to patients. Too many patients with advanced cancer are treated without a frank discussion of how much benefit can actually be expected and at what (non-financial) cost. It seems to have become an article of faith that no patient be allowed to die of cancer without having had chemotherapy of some kind. Yes, there are some malignancies where excellent results from monoclonal antibodies can be expected and I expect there will be more as time goes on, but there is no Operation Warp Speed for cancer.

The point of my comment was that the reason we don't have a cure for cancer is not that we have failed to invest in it, although we can always spend more. The sums that have been expended on cancer research over the years are vastly more than those spent on developing the Covid vaccines. The reason is the difficulty of the problem.

[Tri-Ungulate]

I'm not so much attacking you as I am dubious of the review itself - that boilerplate statement regarding clinical resistance is exceedingly bland, and could be used for pretty much any agent in isolation. And no, I don't dispute that cancer is a much tougher nut to crack.

I do see a potential role for mRNA anticancer vaccines, but most likely in conjugation with classic chemo and current and future targeted- and immuno-therapy. There is no silver bullet, but there are increasingly effective combinatorial solutions. A common problem is that "cancer" is considered a monolithic problem when in reality it is myriad. And we're having enough trouble dealing with a single virion.

[jono]

When it comes to cancer treatment of any kind what is considered success by researchers and oncologists is disappointing to patients. Too many patients with advanced cancer are treated without a frank discussion of how much benefit can actually be expected and at what (non-financial) cost. It seems to have become an article of faith that no patient be allowed to die of cancer without having had chemotherapy of some kind.

My recent experience and those of the dozen or so fellow patients I've spoken with in the last few years seem to indicate that the communication pendulum has swung back the other way. I would argue too far for many younger patients: in my case, I got a very complete accounting of how badly I could expect chemo to go but only one description that included any possibility of a cure--until after surgery, when I was told that a complete pathological response was being seen 25-30% of the time post-surgery.

A friend (under 40) recently died after choosing not to treat an early stage breast cancer at all. My brain doesn't go there with any reliability, so I can't speak to her reasoning, but I don't believe she made the decision without hearing the downsides of treatment.

[jono]

Yes! Living there now.

Thanks for that. There are a number of semi-closed communities in and around town, many of which lean "natural" or anti-science, some of which managed to dodge the disease early. Fertile ground that's now yielding victims. That bit of info is well-timed.

[Skidog]

Speaking with an NY police officer yesterday. His kids plays flag football with mine. Been working since the start of this with no downtime. Says he's not getting vaxxed. Figures he's been in the shit for well over a year. I don't know what to think of this really.

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[MagnificentUnicorn]

Speaking with an NY police officer yesterday. His kids plays flag football with mine. Been working since the start of this with no downtime. Says he's not getting vaxxed. Figures he's been in the shit for well over a year. I don't know what to think of this really.

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It’s just the flu!


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[simple]

Speaking with an NY police officer yesterday. His kids plays flag football with mine. Been working since the start of this with no downtime. Says he's not getting vaxxed. Figures he's been in the shit for well over a year. I don't know what to think of this really.

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The type of person who thinks they are a patriot, has personal choice, and yet doesn't grasp how a vaccine benefits us all. Selfishness is as American as apple pie.

[AK47bp]

2nd Shot of Moderna yesterday at 1pm. 21 hrs later just a really sore arm and feel tired.

Great feeling to be vaccinated.


Welp, Off to lick door knobs......


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[ticketchecker]

One of my closest friends is the ‘my immune system is strong because I live a pristine healthy life and I’m not a fat American who doesn’t take care of themselves’ therefore I don’t need the vax.

Worst part is my Mom is friends with his Mom and he hosts the birthday party for his mom every year. It’s coming up next week and my Mom is too shy to say she doesn’t want to go to his house.

I want to throat punch him


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[old goat]

Got my tetanus booster last monday. Feels good to be free to step on dirty nails. Wearing shoes all the time was getting to be a real drag.

[XXX-er]

One of my closest friends is the ‘my immune system is strong because I live a pristine healthy life and I’m not a fat American who doesn’t take care of themselves’ therefore I don’t need the vax.

Worst part is my Mom is friends with his Mom and he hosts the birthday party for his mom every year. It’s coming up next week and my Mom is too shy to say she doesn’t want to go to his house.

I want to throat punch him


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at the last minute just tell them you think you have covid

they will understand

just recant your diagnosis later