To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[sirbumpsalot]

So here’s the thing though…. If I send that to my antivax guy, he’s instantly like “duh, CNN? You believe that fake bullshit? Come on!”

Kinda like those people that say "duh faux news? You believe that fake bullsit? Come on!" ?

[MultiVerse]

Yeah, but, the Israel experience may be proving that we'll have to get at least annual, maybe eight month booster shots for maybe years.

Maybe, but not necessarily:

- R0 is now below 1 among the vaccinated in Israel. As your article points out in spite of high vaccination rates, 78% of eligible adults but only 58% of total population, means nearly 40% of the population is unvaccinated and that's where high rates of new cases are occurring. It's unvaxxed kids bringing Delta home to older parents, grandparents. Boosters are working in >60+ population.

- Circulating antibodies from vaccination wane over time, but the B & T cell response in the adaptive immune system is longer lasting. That means even over time the immune system still prevents you from getting sick and shedding copious amounts of virus that can go on to infect someone else. Immunity also builds with subsequent exposure.

- Vaxxed breakthroughs are less infectious. In spite of similar viral loads when comparing natural infections with vaccine break through infections, viral culture positivity is lower for vaxxed people and viral load duration is much shorter.

-- Absolute numbers for both cases and disease are much lower among the vaccinated. As more and more people are vaccinated the percentage of vaxxed cases go up but absolute numbers go down:

Attachment 383152

[ill-advised strategy]

Kinda like those people that say "duh faux news? You believe that fake bullsit? Come on!" ?

Right, it’s kinda like that.

[Micol]

and I added a sweatshirt with a built-in zip "balaclava" hood (Sneffles FTW!)

thanks for reppin !

[jono]

thanks for reppin !

Oh, no, thank You!

[MultiVerse]

Interesting, of course it makes sense but still needs to be studied.

Could you extrapolate that if one was fully vaxxed then caught covid delta ( protection only 70% so can happen at reasonable freq) that said person in future would be some factor less likely catching covid again? for a prolonged period?

The human body is constantly making tradeoffs over how much energy to expend on its various systems. It's true for the immune system too.

Storing B-cells and T-cells takes energy. The adaptive immune system will allocate more resources in response to repeated attacks. For this reason, there's a lot of speculation over whether the mRNA doses should have been spaced further apart. First dose first countries like the U.K. and Canada seem to be fairing better than Israel which closely followed the 3-week Pfizer dosing schedule.

Anyway, if the goal is achieving the strongest immune response then this is probably it in rank order:
1. Prior covid + mRNA 1-dose
2. Adenoviral-vector vaccine 1st dose, mRNA 2nd dose
3. 2 doses mRNA
4. 2 doses adenoviral vector (AZ data)

[Sirshredalot]

Kinda like those people that say "duh faux news? You believe that fake bullsit? Come on!" ?

These are demonstrably different things. CNN tries to call balls and strikes. It's mission is journalism as it is traditionally understood. When it fails to do a good job, it is because they don't do a good enough job sticking to the facts, they put talking heads on to "both-sides" issues where there are not two reasonable sides, they focus on stories that alarm because that gets eyeballs. CNN is basically the cable news version of USA Today. They're real journalists, but they have trouble focusing on substantive issues because they're mass market.

Fox is an entirely different animal. It was founded by Nixon administration officials because they wanted an agitprop organ to spread disinformation. That's because they want to do more Watergates and get away with it using concerted disinformation campaigns. Most Fox viewers don't know which of the "programs" are supposed to be "news" and which are "editorial." Most of the Fox programming is banned in other Western democracies with anti-propaganda laws. When Fox does not call balls and strikes and spreads disinformation, they consider this doing a good job. That's because their mission is not journalism as we traditionally understand it in this country - at least for those of us old enough to remember Walter Cronkite. They're Pravda for the American Republican Party, which is roughly equivalent to European far-right parties like the National Front or Golden Dawn, at least as far as it's national leaders go.

I realize that this might be a lot to digest for someone who is unfamiliar with the United States or with the sorry state of American journalism! Where do you live? I can post some links to some articles to help you with media literacy and I'd even be happy to recommend some trustworthy outlets that you can bookmark in your web browser if you'd like!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[climberevan]

∆∆∆ I feel pretty good about being in the 2nd category.J&J in April and Moderna last month.

Any thoughts on whether I should get the 2nd Moderna jab? There's no official guidance for breaking the rules....

[Micol]

Oh, no, thank You!

if uve got a pic of that full kit , we can get it in the gallery section on the frs webzite

[Benny Profane]

Maybe, but not necessarily:

- R0 is now below 1 among the vaccinated in Israel. As your article points out in spite of high vaccination rates, 78% of eligible adults but only 58% of total population, means nearly 40% of the population is unvaccinated and that's where high rates of new cases are occurring. It's unvaxxed kids bringing Delta home to older parents, grandparents. Boosters are working in >60+ population.

- Circulating antibodies from vaccination wane over time, but the B & T cell response in the adaptive immune system is longer lasting. That means even over time the immune system still prevents you from getting sick and shedding copious amounts of virus that can go on to infect someone else. Immunity also builds with subsequent exposure.

- Vaxxed breakthroughs are less infectious. In spite of similar viral loads when comparing natural infections with vaccine break through infections, viral culture positivity is lower for vaxxed people and viral load duration is much shorter.

-- Absolute numbers for both cases and disease are much lower among the vaccinated. As more and more people are vaccinated the percentage of vaxxed cases go up but absolute numbers go down:

Attachment 383152

I don't care. Give me the shot. Cheap, easy, no side effects here.

[rideit]

[Benny Profane]

These are demonstrably different things. CNN tries to call balls and strikes. It's mission is journalism as it is traditionally understood. When it fails to do a good job, it is because they don't do a good enough job sticking to the facts, they put talking heads on to "both-sides" issues where there are not two reasonable sides, they focus on stories that alarm because that gets eyeballs. CNN is basically the cable news version of USA Today. They're real journalists, but they have trouble focusing on substantive issues because they're mass market.

Fox is an entirely different animal. It was founded by Nixon administration officials because they wanted an agitprop organ to spread disinformation. That's because they want to do more Watergates and get away with it using concerted disinformation campaigns. Most Fox viewers don't know which of the "programs" are supposed to be "news" and which are "editorial." Most of the Fox programming is banned in other Western democracies with anti-propaganda laws. When Fox does not call balls and strikes and spreads disinformation, they consider this doing a good job. That's because their mission is not journalism as we traditionally understand it in this country - at least for those of us old enough to remember Walter Cronkite. They're Pravda for the American Republican Party, which is roughly equivalent to European far-right parties like the National Front or Golden Dawn, at least as far as it's national leaders go.

I realize that this might be a lot to digest for someone who is unfamiliar with the United States or with the sorry state of American journalism! Where do you live? I can post some links to some articles to help you with media literacy and I'd even be happy to recommend some trustworthy outlets that you can bookmark in your web browser if you'd like!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Haha. You think CNN is news. Funny. The guy running the show there is Jeff Zucker, the man who made the Apprentice.

[rideit]

A deeper dive if you care.

https://scholarsarchive.jwu.edu/cgi/...nt_scholarship

[Bunion 2020]

Haha. You think CNN is news. Funny. The guy running the show there is Jeff Zucker, the man who made the Apprentice.

Yep, sound like "News 2021" to me. That said, comparing CNN to Fox as both being impartial news services is fantasy.

[MultiVerse]

You have no idea.

Are you feeling sick? How bad is it? Because the phrase breakthrough infection doesn't necessarily tell the story. A true breakthrough means getting seriously sick, even if not life-threatening, something that is very unpleasant vs mild-ish upper respiratory congestion.



In any case, here's an explanation on why breakthrough cases happen and why vaccines still offer protection from severe infection (rarer breakthrough hospitalizations tend to be older people with health issues):

Vaccines that are injected into arm muscles aren’t likely to be able to protect our nasal passages from marauding SARS-CoV-2 viruses for very long, even if they are doing a terrific job protecting lungs from the virus.

Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.”

Florian Krammer, a vaccinologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital, thinks existing vaccines likely induce high enough levels of circulating antibodies early after vaccination that some of them end up in the mucus membranes of the nose and throat. But as antibody levels start to drop in the months after vaccination, that early nasal protection seems to wane with it — especially in the face of the onslaught of the Delta variant, he suggested.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/...asal-vaccines/


Back when the Covid vaccines first began widespread distribution most health experts were skeptical of full sterilizing immunity. The fact that intramuscular injection protects lungs, but not always the upper airways is representative of how other vaccines work.

[mcski]

Yep, sound like "News 2021" to me. That said, comparing CNN to Fox as both being impartial news services is fantasy.

The main difference is cnn is all about whatever the perceive will get them the most eyeballs. Fix is committed to the attaining maximum eyeballs by targeting a specific demo. Plane crashes vs Demographic outrage

[DougW]

[QUOTE=MultiVerse;6385492]......
strongest immune response then this is probably it in rank order: edited for more cases

1. Prior covid + mRNA 1-dose ( 2 doses better)
2. Adenoviral-vector vaccine 1st dose, mRNA 2nd dose ( Canada and some others countries? )
2a 2 doses mRNA with 8 weeks spacing ( Canada and UK that were short of vac and ending up being lucky)
3. 2 doses mRNA
4. 2 doses adenoviral vector (AZ data)

[MultiVerse]

The main difference is cnn is all about whatever the perceive will get them the most eyeballs. Fix is committed to the attaining maximum eyeballs by targeting a specific demo. Plane crashes vs Demographic outrage

Yeah, because there's so much competition now viewers are to blame too. Media outlets are being forced to serve what their audience wants to see in order to survive in their niche. It becomes theater promoting the version of reality their audience prefers.

[Benny Profane]

The main difference is cnn is all about whatever the perceive will get them the most eyeballs. Fix is committed to the attaining maximum eyeballs by targeting a specific demo. Plane crashes vs Demographic outrage

Holy crap, you think there's a difference. As though CNN hasn't been making bank preaching to the choir about how the white trash hasn't been vaccinating, while some of the lowest vaccine numbers are urban blacks, you know, the Biden voter.

[KQ]

for those of you who have been following this and lambasting W2's covid response - from today's paper:

Kaminsky 'sound bite' failed to convey message of unity, efforts, Walla Walla County health officials say


When Dr. Daniel Kaminsky agreed to an interview with a reporter for public radio, his vision was to showcase the extraordinary efforts the Walla Walla community is doing to fight the COVID-19 pandemic.

Not come out looking like the nation’s court jester, Kaminsky said.

What emerged in the piece broadcast by the National Public Radio program, “All Things Considered” on Thursday, Aug. 19, however, felt unfair and was definitely disappointing, the county’s Public Health Officer said the next day.

“I had a 50-minute, nuanced conversation and my quotes were less than 25 seconds,” Kaminsky said of the segment titled “A Lack Of Health Information Has Made This Washington County A COVID Hot Spot.”

Indeed, his contribution to the story got whittled to three sentences carrying none of the information he’d hoped to convey, he said.

In the story, Puget Sound-area KUOW public radio station reporter Eilís O’Neill discusses her time spent in Walla Walla at the end of July, when Walla Walla County did have one of the highest case rates of the coronavirus per capita in the nation and low vaccination rates.

Walla Walla County, which had seen case rates fall in early summer, was the first county in Washington to get hit with the aggressive and highly contagious delta mutation of COVID-19. Spiking case rates here reflected that sooner than in other counties, officials said.

In the show originally broadcast by KUOW on July 29, O’Neill spoke with Colville Street Patisserie owner David Christensen, who said the county Department of Community Health — Kaminsky specifically — had not provided specific business masking guidance when he asked it to.

The reporter also spoke with Claudia Reyes, who manages her family’s restaurant, Taqueria Yungapeti on South Ninth Avenue.

Reyes said when her son needed his appendix taken out in mid-July, she was surprised to learn this wave of the pandemic had struck people so severely and created a shortage of hospital bed space.

Reyes also told O’Neill that while her husband, who is missing a kidney, got vaccinated she wants to wait “a little bit longer” for more information about the vaccines.

That information would typically come from public health officials, but Kaminsky isn’t talking about it, the reporter inferred.

Rather, the KUOW interview with the public health leader suggests he is more interested in holding on to the community’s trust once the pandemic ends.

That’s not the point Kaminsky remembers trying to get across to O’Neill, he told the Union-Bulletin on Friday, Aug, 20.

The physician is the first to say he struggles in interacting with reporters, unsure of how he will come across. He’s not had media training and didn’t do a good job of crafting his message during that radio interview, he felt.

But the points he intended to convey was that Walla Walla County health department is doing a good job in getting information out through various platforms, including social media and presentations in county commission, unified command and local service club meetings.

In those Kaminsky and his staff continually encourage vaccinations. But in reaching the people who just refuse to consider getting vaccinated and don’t believe the science behind it, Walla Walla County is among the majority of counties in the state with the same challenge and no answers yet, Kaminsky said.

By not directly including that wording when answering O’Neill’s question about what more can be done, his rhetorical response might seem anemic.

What’s the one thing he could say to change those minds, Kaminsky wondered aloud to O’Neill.

He’s not convinced he has the ability and power to do that, he conceded to the reporter.

It’s frustrating to hear that played back, the doctor said.

“When we are doing the best we can for our county.”

Plenty of anecdotal evidence and data is showing that “blaming, shaming and finger wagging” pushes people away from vaccination rather than toward it, Kaminsky said.

He does empathize with people struggling with vaccination information, he added.

“We want to be there when people are ready to make that decision … My strategy is to be as close to them as I can. Part of the messaging is just facts, no spin. The second spoke of my strategy to have vaccinations as readily available as possible.”

While some agencies in the United States have offered incentives for getting the jab, a public health department doesn’t have that tool in its toolbox, Kaminsky said.

That’s where community partnerships play an important role, he added, such as his hope to join with Baker Boyer Bank and Walla Walla Valley Chamber of Commerce to offer a vaccine lottery.

Joining Friday’s interview, the county’s former, long-time public health officer Dr. Larry Jecha noted many states have tried various incentives without gaining real traction.

“Whatever we do now, it is difficult to get behavioral changes right now,” he said. “I don’t think there is a right answer. You can throw money at it, but it needs to be a community effort.”

Like when the polio vaccine arrived in the Tri-Cities, he said as an example.

“People have told me the doctors met the vaccine at the airport. People were lined up, begging to get it. And here we are, trying to beg people. Can you imagine?”

Every public health department in Washington lacks enough resources, including staffing, Jecha said, thanks to the demise of motor vehicle excise taxes 20 years ago.

That loss eventually meant no state funding for basic county health services, leaving it up to county coffers to fill the gaps.

Kaminsky is in a hard spot, Jecha pointed out.

The public health officer’s job has changed dramatically during the pandemic. The position has been elevated to a political level that’s not been seen in the past. Add in the public’s anger and fear of the virus, and the job has become a minefield, Jecha said.

“And a 25-second sound bite out of a 50 minute interview, I think it was cheap shot,” he said.

Topping that was the national rebroadcast three weeks later, when other counties in Washington have reached similar case rates as the delta variant spread out from this corner of the state and Walla Walla no longer stands alone.

“And we are 15th in vaccination rates,” Kaminsky said. “We are not laggards. We did this with a volunteer corp...with no state or federal help.”

The public radio experience has shown him that perhaps “perception is everything,” he said. “And I’ve been focusing on substance.”

One sliver of a silver lining is that since Walla Walla County was the first to get slammed by the delta variant, case counts should plateau here first, like what is happening in India and the United Kingdom now, the men predicted.

“If we had natural and vaccinated immunity, we could have stopped this. That’s how you stop a variant, by stopping the disease,” Jecha said.

Kaminsky said he expects the pandemic to last about 18 more months, during which time he will continue to try and raise vaccination rates and bring the community together on a common front line.

“We are working long and hard hours,” he said. “And I am trying to do the best for this county.”

[jono]

if uve got a pic of that full kit , we can get it in the gallery section on the frs webzite

For better and worse it's my wife that takes all the selfies, but she's gonna dig through--the chemo version might have been better. If I can convince her to give one up I'll email you. She's super jealous of all things FRS and making noises about copyrights and such

[rideit]

It has been fairly amusing, and indicative of the elderly cognitive decline, to watch Benny turn into a Trumpie/conservative/contrarian over the last few years.
Bless your heart, Benny!

[rideit]

X-post…but Banff tells the Covidiots to ‘fuck off, eh?’

https://globalnews.ca/news/8123104/c...es-legalities/

[mcski]

Holy crap, you think there's a difference. As though CNN hasn't been making bank preaching to the choir about how the white trash hasn't been vaccinating, while some of the lowest vaccine numbers are urban blacks, you know, the Biden voter.

I forgot where I was posting, don’t kick this thread to polyass, you decrepit, senile rabbit

[Benny Profane]

Wait. Really? Even mentioning the obvious makes me a senile Fox viewer? It's a problem. If you watched local NYC news and tv, there are many commercials targeting people of color, especially blacks. The numbers don't lie. The elite rich and upper middle class is the opposite. Nearly 95% vaxxed.

But, of course, the elite run media won't tell you that. It's Trump's fault.