To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[old_newguy]

Are we pretending that vaccines to travel to other countries is a new thing now?

[KQ]

Are we pretending that vaccines to travel to other countries is a new thing now?

True dat! I had to get a yellow fever jab to go to Peru/Ecuador.

[skaredshtles]

Are we pretending that vaccines to travel to other countries is a new thing now?

Oh, you know *some* people will...

[bennymac]

but not on a cruise ship cuz Andorra is land locked

Right right right. I shoulda used Liechtenstein.

[KQ]

Right right right. I shoulda used Liechtenstein.

I've always dreamed of taking a cruise to Nebraska.

[riser4]

Right right right. I shoulda used Liechtenstein.

Lick what now?!?

[GoldMember]

Lick Ten Steins...big during Oktoberfest.

[Ted Striker]

I've always dreamed of taking a cruise to Nebraska.

Try to book it for the spring/summer shoulder season. That way you'll see the amber waves of grain.

[Hopeless Sinner]

What I find most interesting are the US territories. I wonder why the disparity between Guam and the Virgin Islands? I've been to Guam countless times but never the VI, so wondering if its a cultural difference? Logistics?

Guam has 2 substantial military bases, a naval base and an air force base w a combined 12,000 personnel + families.

[PB]

Yabbut - the other one has VIRGINS!!

[Harry]

Guam has 2 substantial military bases, a naval base and an air force base w a combined 12,000 personnel + families.

Dude, Austin/Montucky knows that. He is a USAF vet. That’s how he knows Guam.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[The AD]

Ask for Mr. Ciccio
Tell him Poppy sent you

And don't tell the Maestro.

[The AD]

Some people are so fucking stupid that it's painful:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/26/u...y-vaccine.html

A private school in the fashionable Design District of Miami sent its faculty and staff a letter last week about getting vaccinated against Covid-19. But unlike institutions that have encouraged and even facilitated vaccination for teachers, the school, Centner Academy, did the opposite: One of its co-founders, Leila Centner, informed employees “with a very heavy heart” that if they chose to get a shot, they would have to stay away from students.

In an example of how misinformation threatens the nation’s effort to vaccinate enough Americans to get the coronavirus under control, Ms. Centner, who has frequently shared anti-vaccine posts on Facebook, claimed in the letter that “reports have surfaced recently of non-vaccinated people being negatively impacted by interacting with people who have been vaccinated.”

“Even among our own population, we have at least three women with menstrual cycles impacted after having spent time with a vaccinated person,” she wrote, repeating a false claim that vaccinated people can somehow pass the vaccine to others and thereby affect their reproductive systems.

[GoldMember]

^^ And she's the supporting individual for a private school for kids? Wow, makes you wonder what their curriculum consists of. 'The Earth is flat!'

Reading her bio, you wouldn't expect such ignorance:

For many years Leila Centner was the Chief Financial Officer of Highway Toll Administration (HTA) until it was sold in March 2018. Prior to her work with HTA, Leila held several high-level financial roles with Arthur Andersen and Deloitte & Touche, overseeing engagements with multi-billion dollar accounting clients. Leila’s greatest joy comes from being part of humanitarian organizations such as Convoy of Hope and the Centner Foundation, which she co-manages with her husband David. A proud mother of two daughters, Leila graduated Magna Cum Laude from the University of Southern California’s School of Accounting and received her MBA from the University of California.

[MontuckyFried]

Guam has 2 substantial military bases, a naval base and an air force base w a combined 12,000 personnel + families.

Yeah. That could be where the logistics part comes into play. However, I don't know if military members would be part of those stats, but who knows? Whether they are or not would DEFINITELY skew the statistics heavily one direction or the other since apparently these days (according to teh Googlez) personnel + family is closer to 20K. That's a pretty big chunk of the overall island numbers.

Dude, Austin/Montucky knows that. He is a USAF vet. That’s how he knows Guam.

Lol yup. Love that place.

[wooley12]

You don't know shit every time you post. I knew that. Nice to see you know that. The reason to ignore.

[Nobody Famous]

^^ And she's the supporting individual for a private school for kids? Wow, makes you wonder what their curriculum consists of. 'The Earth is flat!'

Reading her bio, you wouldn't expect such ignorance:

For many years Leila Centner was the Chief Financial Officer of Highway Toll Administration (HTA) until it was sold in March 2018. Prior to her work with HTA, Leila held several high-level financial roles with Arthur Andersen and Deloitte & Touche, overseeing engagements with multi-billion dollar accounting clients. Leila’s greatest joy comes from being part of humanitarian organizations such as Convoy of Hope and the Centner Foundation, which she co-manages with her husband David. A proud mother of two daughters, Leila graduated Magna Cum Laude from the University of Southern California’s School of Accounting and received her MBA from the University of California.

I was thinking what parent pays to send their kids to a school like this? Then I saw this in the quoted article:

The Centner Academy opened in 2019 for students in prekindergarten through eighth grade, promoting itself as a “happiness school” focused on children’s mindfulness and emotional intelligence. The school prominently advertises on its website support for “medical freedom from mandated vaccines.”

Now I'm thinking if you're a teacher there you should have known what you signed up for or else shame on you.

[Jacques Strap]

Reposting.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ill-protected/

Thanks, I'd missed that. I've been out of the TGR loop for a while. Good article, and it kinda agrees with my proposed idea. We don't know why some people have considerable side effects and others have nothing more than a sore deltoid for a day. The article brings up lots of handwaving explanations (age, sex, genetics, race, ethnicity, pre-existing conditions, environment, diet, "quirks of each person's immune system"), but no evidence or biological plausibility for any of them.

I'm suggesting maybe the individual difference between people is some had COVID already and some haven't. And if there were as many asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections as suggested, a lot of people were infected and didn't even know it. I think that is the population that's having these intense side effects. According to my idea, people that only got a sore arm never were infected with the virus (asymptomatically or otherwise).

But the article is very much worth the read, it even touches the topics that've been discussed the last page or two of this thread.

[jono]

It sounds like you're saying that "sources of error that can't be accounted for" should be accounted for. Which, sure, but...


I keep wondering if anyone can just count the reactions among the breakthrough participants and compare their frequency with the rest of the participants. They have the data that speaks to this directly.

[huckbucket]

Thanks, I'd missed that. I've been out of the TGR loop for a while. Good article, and it kinda agrees with my proposed idea. We don't know why some people have considerable side effects and others have nothing more than a sore deltoid for a day. The article brings up lots of handwaving explanations (age, sex, genetics, race, ethnicity, pre-existing conditions, environment, diet, "quirks of each person's immune system"), but no evidence or biological plausibility for any of them.

I'm suggesting maybe the individual difference between people is some had COVID already and some haven't. And if there were as many asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections as suggested, a lot of people were infected and didn't even know it. I think that is the population that's having these intense side effects. According to my idea, people that only got a sore arm never were infected with the virus (asymptomatically or otherwise).

But the article is very much worth the read, it even touches the topics that've been discussed the last page or two of this thread.

Wait. Your idea? You do realize how obvious that hypothesis is, right? Further, the Wheery paper referenced in that article (linked below) takes it one step further. Rather than explore a rather simplistic relationship between the severity of side effects and prior infection, they identify a correlation between antibody levels and side effects. That way they can connect the dots more thoroughly. For example, second shot Pfizer or Moderna may elicit more severe side effects due to primed adaptive response and therefore a higher antibody level immediately post-injection. In "your hypothesis," you can expect those who have been infected previously to have memory B cells primed to boost antibody levels immediately post-vaccination. The paper is a good read.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...872v1.full.pdf

[Tri-Ungulate]

Lighten up a little huck. He came to the idea on his own volition and it's not a bad one. Back when I actually did active research, whenever I came up with a scientific hypothesis I thought worth investigating, I always figured someone else had BTDT and either it had been worked out a bajillion times before, or some competitor was waaaay ahead of me, which discouraged me from following through.

Suffice to say I don't work in a lab anymore.

[Jacques Strap]

It sounds like you're saying that "sources of error that can't be accounted for" should be accounted for. Which, sure, but...

I wasn't really talking about the sources of error that can't be accounted for. Of course they could be what is causing the assortment of responses we are seeing in vaccine recipients, but they have been presented as the explaination without much evidence, proposed mechanisms, or even presentation of severity of symptoms aligning with any of those variables. Basically, they're the biologists' way of saying "I dunno, shit's complicated."

Wait. Your idea? You do realize how obvious that hypothesis is, right?

I don't know why you're taking that tone. Yes, I said the words "my idea" for simplicity's sake, but I never said it was revolutionary or unique. It's just an idea I had that I haven't come across anywhere else (which is I threw that line of attempted humor at the end of my first post). And just because an idea is obvious doesn't mean it shouldn't be stated.

the Wheery paper referenced

We know that previously infected individuals have a stronger set of side effects. They mount an immune response to the first shot of the vaccine that's like 50 times greater than SARS-CoV-2 naive individuals. That's not what I was trying to say, it's evidence I was pointing to in building my case. The previously infected cohort in the Wheery paper were self-identified as having previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.

We know if you've been infected, you're probably going to have a worse set of side effects (it's about the only thing we know in this side effects puzzle). And we know there were a ton (~40%) of asymptomatic infections. The possibly unnovel likely obvious maybe unremarkable probably incorrect idea I gave voice to (my God, it takes a lot longer to say that way) was that an explanation for all of this variability in the severity of side effect responses in individuals getting the vaccine who never had (or at least never knew they had) SARS-CoV-2, is that people who have bad side effects to the vaccine maybe had an asymptomatic course of the infection and therefore don't self-identify as (or even know they are) "previously infected".

[MultiVerse]

^ The theory has been studied: Previously-infected individuals tend to have a strong reaction to the first vaccine dose whereas the non-infected have a strong reaction to the second dose.


Seropositive individuals who receive a single dose have pronounced reactogenicity and antibody titers that exceed non infected individuals who receive two vaccinations.

For the estimated 100+ million Americans infected with Covid-19 a single vaccine dose results in rapid uniform antibody titers 10-20 times higher than natural infection within days of vaccination.

If the immune responses are maintained over time then:

1) Single dose folks with pre-existing immunity have the highest number of antibodies
2) Followed by two dose non-infected who have high but not as high antibody titers
3) Lastly, natively infected but not vaccinated have the lowest antibody titers

February 1, 2021: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...653v1.full.pdf

Earlier discussion: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...59#post6221159



FWIW, the actual percentage of asymptomatic infections is probably lower than 40%. A meta-analysis of studies using antibody testing and polling techniques puts the number around 40%. But when people are interviewed and asked if they had a loss of smell and taste or body aches, for example, the number is much lower.

If you take the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) as an example asymptomatic rate estimates (a component of the infection rate) vary through time. Initial reports said the number was 80%, then 60%, with the final tally after interviewing the sailors ending up around 20% asymptomatic.

[old goat]

Is it possible that people with a lot of side effects from the vaccination have been previously infected with particular other types of coronavirus that have some cross reactivity with SARS-CoV-2?

[Adolf Allerbush]

It's recommended to avoid anti-inflammatory drugs like aspirin, ibuprofen, and naproxen, but acetominophen (Tylenol) isn't considered an anti-inflammatory. I've seen a number of sources recommend it as the drug of choice if someone is having a lot of pain from the vaccine. I haven't seen evidence about the anti-inflammatories being bad--it's the "abundance of caution" thing. Is anyone aware of evidence to support the recommendation. (An abundance of caution is what got McClellan fired by Lincoln.)

No doubt you know more about this than I do, or a pharmacist for that matter. I did ask her if she meant anti-inflammatory (i.e., advil, etc.) drugs or any over the counter pain killer and she said the latter, inclusive of tylenol (acetaminophen)...her explanation was that anything that keeps your body from allowing it to have whatever viral response (i.e., aches, fever, etc.) it would otherwise have to the vaccine is reducing the effectiveness of the vaccine. Is that true? hell if I know, but it made sense at the time. Her recommendation was to suck it up and deal with the symptoms unless you absolutely cannot stand it.