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  1. #13001
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    The reasoning given for the first judge's ordering the hospital to give Ivermectin is the same bad reasoning a majority of the SCOTUS used to allow the Texas abortion law to stand--using strict adherence to the technicalities of the law without regard to the outcome. Such reasoning breeds contempt for the law and the court.

    Judge Howard ordered the hospital to give the drug. I haven't seen his order so maybe he addressed this issue but hospitals cannot prescribe or administer drugs; doctors on staff of a hospital prescribe drugs and nurses administer them. Both doctors and nurses are licensed practitioners subject to professional discipline for violating the standard of care. Can the court order individual doctors and nurses to provide certain care. Apparently in this case the hospital must have found a doctor and a nurse willing to give the Ivermectin. I certainly would have refused.

    The correct ruling in the first hearing would have been for Judge Howard to deny the injunction on the grounds that the court has no business determining the standard of medical care or telling doctors and nurses how to practice medicine. No presentation of evidence by the hospital would have been necessary for the judge to have ruled this way. (This is different than the situation where a court orders a transfusion for a minor child of Jehovah's Witnesses; in this case the court is not ruling on the standard of care but on the right of parents to withhold live saving care from their minor child.)

    We have reached a point where every dispute is ultimately settled in court. I do not believe that the rule of law requires this, I do not believe that the framers of the Constitution intended this, and I believe that justice and the rule of law would best be served if judges more often demurred in situations in which they have no proper role to play. In Bush v Gore the SCOTUS intervened in a case in which it had no jurisdiction; the matter was properly before the Florida Supreme Court and used tortured reasoning to deny a recount that almost certainly would have made Gore President.. In 2020 the Court stayed out of the election, to its credit. Would that Judge Howard had exercised the same restraint.

  2. #13002
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    I knew it wouldn't go well when I mentioned to my anti-vaxxer friend that I believed my 90yo mother survived Covid with little more than flu like symptoms because she was vaxxed. Sure enough she claims to have lost 4 family members (one just the other day!) to "the shot" because this vax is not like any other.

    There is nothing to say to her so I won't try. She even sent me a graph showing 16K deaths from the vax so far this year.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

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  3. #13003
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    I can think of a few things to say.

  4. #13004
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    Nov 2008
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    Edge of the Great Basin
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    We have reached a point where every dispute is ultimately settled in court. I do not believe that the rule of law requires this,
    The second judge addressed this issue too, writing the plaintiff could have switched hospitals without involving the court:

    However, Dr. Wagshul prescribed the medication without having seen Jeff Smith and does not have privileges at West Chester Hospital.

    What is more, based upon the testimony, Jeff Smith is capable of being safely and medically appropriately moved to a hospital where Dr. Wagshul has privileges. If continued use of ivermectin under Dr. Wagshul's treatment regimen is desired, Plaintiff has this as an available option without the need of intervention by a court.

  5. #13005
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    Can I just say how much I hate the way things have become among people? Seems like no one believes anything anymore or believes whatever they dream up and everyone is angry. Myself included.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  6. #13006
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Can I just say how much I hate the way things have become among people? Seems like no one believes anything anymore or believes whatever they dream up and everyone is angry. Myself included.
    Little did we know God is technology seeing and recording everything everyone does and carrying out me too types of justice and reckoning. Satan is the internet and technology luring unsuspecting naive people in to doing dumb and sometimes evil things...
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  7. #13007
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    Dec 2003
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    Seattle
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    32,504
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Little did we know God is technology seeing and recording everything everyone does and carrying out me too types of justice and reckoning. Satan is the internet and technology luring unsuspecting naive people in to doing dumb and sometimes evil things...
    Which god in particular?

    A bet all the other gods will be pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  8. #13008
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Little did we know God is technology seeing and recording everything everyone does and carrying out me too types of justice and reckoning. Satan is the internet and technology luring unsuspecting naive people in to doing dumb and sometimes evil things...
    The internet had def. been a double edged sword and I'd like to amend my statement by saying I'm more sad than angry. Such troubling times for which I see very little light anymore.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  9. #13009
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Can I just say how much I hate the way things have become among people? Seems like no one believes anything anymore or believes whatever they dream up and everyone is angry. Myself included.
    I feel the same way sometimes

    Then I realize the dissonance is coming from a small but very vocal minority. And that dissonance is being fed by an even smaller group of people using this group for financial gain. And it’s amplified by the press for financial gain as well.
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  10. #13010
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    I smell poutine!!!
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    Follow the money.

  11. #13011
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    I feel the same way sometimes

    Then I realize the dissonance is coming from a small but very vocal minority. And that dissonance is being fed by an even smaller group of people using this group for financial gain. And it’s amplified by the press for financial gain as well.
    It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't also extremely heavily armed. That's why they're so bold now. The guns give them courage to act like assholes everywhere to everyone..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  12. #13012
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    Aug 2005
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    Depends on the time of year
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    Follow the money.
    Did that, now at the bank and they're telling me they're going to "call the cops" if I keep insisting on following the money into their vault. Wat do next?

    I read that Breitbart piece that was linked a little bit ago. First time I've ever read a Breitbart "article", and hopefully the last time. It helps to contextualise the frustration felt by many here (myself included) just in how it feels like whenever facts and evidence are presented by those with actual experience and knowledge, entities like Breitbart are standing at the ready to immediately discredit it for depressingly selfish reasons. And they likely never will face accountability for it, even if/when that "source of news" goes out of business.

  13. #13013
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    Nov 2002
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    EWA
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    Does anyone else find themselves asking what is reality anymore?
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

  14. #13014
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    Nov 2005
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    6,122
    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Does anyone else find themselves asking what is reality anymore?
    No. But within the asylum sanity is turning out to be very cold comfort.

  15. #13015
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    Oct 2003
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    Golden BC
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    If any body wants to look at this
    https://www.eastonspectator.com/2021...-md-mph-frcpc/
    its long but it does seem contain some valid points though at some parts it really doesn't seem written by a MD ? To technical for me by far
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  16. #13016
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Sandy, Utah
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    The reasoning given for the first judge's ordering the hospital to give Ivermectin is the same bad reasoning a majority of the SCOTUS used to allow the Texas abortion law to stand--using strict adherence to the technicalities of the law without regard to the outcome. Such reasoning breeds contempt for the law and the court.

    Judge Howard ordered the hospital to give the drug. I haven't seen his order so maybe he addressed this issue but hospitals cannot prescribe or administer drugs; doctors on staff of a hospital prescribe drugs and nurses administer them. Both doctors and nurses are licensed practitioners subject to professional discipline for violating the standard of care. Can the court order individual doctors and nurses to provide certain care. Apparently in this case the hospital must have found a doctor and a nurse willing to give the Ivermectin. I certainly would have refused.

    The correct ruling in the first hearing would have been for Judge Howard to deny the injunction on the grounds that the court has no business determining the standard of medical care or telling doctors and nurses how to practice medicine. No presentation of evidence by the hospital would have been necessary for the judge to have ruled this way. (This is different than the situation where a court orders a transfusion for a minor child of Jehovah's Witnesses; in this case the court is not ruling on the standard of care but on the right of parents to withhold live saving care from their minor child.)

    We have reached a point where every dispute is ultimately settled in court. I do not believe that the rule of law requires this, I do not believe that the framers of the Constitution intended this, and I believe that justice and the rule of law would best be served if judges more often demurred in situations in which they have no proper role to play. In Bush v Gore the SCOTUS intervened in a case in which it had no jurisdiction; the matter was properly before the Florida Supreme Court and used tortured reasoning to deny a recount that almost certainly would have made Gore President.. In 2020 the Court stayed out of the election, to its credit. Would that Judge Howard had exercised the same restraint.
    Tons of opinion in this post.

    You can play the "technical law" card, but that's why lawyers exist. Want the "technicality" removed? Change the rules. Not so easy, but that's reality.

    We may disagree with various outcomes, but law is law.

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  17. #13017
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    The internet had def. been a double edged sword and I'd like to amend my statement by saying I'm more sad than angry. Such troubling times for which I see very little light anymore.
    We don't agree on a lot, but I'm beginning to think the internet is the end of man.

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  18. #13018
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    Oct 2008
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    Wenatchee
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    We don't agree on a lot, but I'm beginning to think the internet is the end of man.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app
    Wow, we agree


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  19. #13019
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    Oct 2004
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    50 miles E of Paradise
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Does anyone else find themselves asking what is reality anymore?
    No problem with assessing reality - I can deal with math and science.

    Human behavior is a different story - I spend a lot of time asking “Where the fuck did people come up with THAT?”

    That may be because, as someone once told me, my thinking is bounded by rationality…
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  20. #13020
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    Oct 2004
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    50 miles E of Paradise
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    If any body wants to look at this
    https://www.eastonspectator.com/2021...-md-mph-frcpc/
    its long but it does seem contain some valid points though at some parts it really doesn't seem written by a MD ? To technical for me by far
    Can’t the good doctor comply with the mandate thru a J&J jab rather than an mRNA vax?
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  21. #13021
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    Oct 2003
    Location
    Golden BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    Can’t the good doctor comply with the mandate thru a J&J jab rather than an mRNA vax?
    yes I pointed that out on FB , AZ or J&J or push for approval of sinovax which I think is pretty conventional, how about sputnik?

    I think some others should be approved with no liability so there is no excuse about the evil mRNA vaxs.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  22. #13022
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    180
    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Does anyone else find themselves asking what is reality anymore?
    I suggest taking an e-break for a bit, it’s cleansing, reality will become clear again.

    Option B: Speed things up with psychedelics.

  23. #13023
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
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    18,396
    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    I knew it wouldn't go well when I mentioned to my anti-vaxxer friend that I believed my 90yo mother survived Covid with little more than flu like symptoms because she was vaxxed. Sure enough she claims to have lost 4 family members (one just the other day!) to "the shot" because this vax is not like any other.

    There is nothing to say to her so I won't try. She even sent me a graph showing 16K deaths from the vax so far this year.
    One can only admire your persistence in engaging these people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The second judge addressed this issue too, writing the plaintiff could have switched hospitals without involving the court:

    However, Dr. Wagshul prescribed the medication without having seen Jeff Smith and does not have privileges at West Chester Hospital.

    What is more, based upon the testimony, Jeff Smith is capable of being safely and medically appropriately moved to a hospital where Dr. Wagshul has privileges. If continued use of ivermectin under Dr. Wagshul's treatment regimen is desired, Plaintiff has this as an available option without the need of intervention by a court.
    Yeah, I saw that. Around here prescribing for a critically ill patient without seeing them would get you an appointment with the medical board, unless it was a telemedicine consultation with a rural physician with no access to the specialty.

  24. #13024
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    May 2007
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    Sandy, Utah
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Wow, we agree


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Shit happens man. I've said it before. Ted Unabomber was probably right in his ideas, bad messaging.

    In reality, the industrial revolution was the downfall of man.

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  25. #13025
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    Dec 2012
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    I smell poutine!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    We don't agree on a lot, but I'm beginning to think the internet is the end of man.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app
    Just the lit match on the gasoline.

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