To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[ill-advised strategy]

I guess about 30 people are planning on quitting at my work if they have to get vaccines.

Hopefully they are all above me in seniority.

My wife has had 2 promotions and I’m top seniority now behind this shit.
Bring it on, I guess. We didn’t ask for this. No room for dipshits on this run.

[m55078]

everyone should first think about their health condition before making such a decision

[skiJ]

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...M:gen:PTN:FY21

"CDC now recommends that people aged 65 years and older, residents in long-term care settings, and people aged 50–64 years with underlying medical conditions should receive a booster shot of Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 Vaccine at least 6 months after completing their Pfizer-BioNTech primary series. Other groups may receive a booster shot based on their individual risk and benefit. "

" What We Are Still Learning
How well the vaccines protect people with weakened immune systems, including people who take medicines that suppress the immune system
How long COVID-19 vaccines protect people
How many people have to be vaccinated against COVID-19 before the population can be considered protected (population immunity)
How effective the vaccines are against new variants of the virus that causes COVID-19 "
- - - - -

MUnicorn's post is thoughtful and well-reasoned. it could go further -

If one reads the CDC's official Release ( cited and quoted above ), I believe the agency's position is Clear, and clearly stated ;
how the vote of an 'advisory committee' is even news kind of mystifies me ( an 'advisory committee' is not a decision-making body ( I question an advisory committee that would even presume to present advice in the form of a 'vote' - And If that actually occurred...

it did not -

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021...-boosters.html

" As expected, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention backed a booster shot of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine for people 65 and older, long-term-care-facility residents, and adults with medical problems shortly after the agency’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommended the same. But the CDC overruled the panel on another issue, opting to recommend a third dose for adults working in institutional settings who are at elevated risk because they live in a setting or work in an occupation that exposes them to COVID-19.

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky signed off on most of the ACIP’s recommendations, but in a rare break from the agency’s advisory panel, deviated on the fourth and final one. She said people should be offered boosters if they are between the ages of 18 and 64 and are at an elevated risk for exposure to COVID-19, such as health-care workers, teachers, grocery workers, and those in homeless shelters or prisons.

"As CDC Director, it is my job to recognize where our actions can have the greatest impact,” Walensky said in a statement late Thursday. “At CDC, we are tasked with analyzing complex, often imperfect data to make concrete recommendations that optimize health. In a pandemic, even with uncertainty, we must take actions that we anticipate will do the greatest good.” She added that a booster for those in at-risk work and living environments aligns with the Food and Drug Administration’s booster authorization earlier this week.

So far, recommendations cover only people who received their second Pfizer shot at least six months earlier. The CDC advisory panel expressed concern over the millions of Americans who received Moderna or Johnson & Johnson shots early in the vaccine rollout; at the moment, agencies still haven’t considered these for booster authorization and they discourage mix-and-matching vaccine brands. "
- - - - -

The CDC's position seems reasoned and reasonable to me :

those over 65, And those with risk factors, including elevated risk of exposure,

who have been vaccinated with Pfizer.


the need for the cynics to misrepresent this decision. . . ( and the hysteria about 'DATA' )

no.

This is a matter of Public Health Policy -
it is the Responsibility of the Director to determine Policy moving forward.

That's all this is.

but those who are determined to pursue the argument, ,,, ( I see it coming, and I am not going to put it into words in My post ).

for those vaccinated with Pfizer, over 65 years, And those at risk(,) increased including risk of exposure to covid, boosters are recommended.

That is all.

with due respect. tj

[4matic]

I got a third dose of Moderna. Seems there is some conflicting information. I suspect it has something to do with billing the government and hospital profit. Especially since it was Sutter Palo Alto health.

[MontuckyFried]

Yeah I didn’t see any booster mandate


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You're right.... so far. Not here yet, but the precedent is already being set in a few other countries that have set expiration dates on vaccination status, in anticipation of requiring boosters to stay current. That conversation is being had here I assure you.

Every step of the way, when some of us see something on the horizon, many here are like "Naaah. That won't happen. Don't be such a conspiracy theorist." And then sure enough, that very thing happens. One after another.

So do we have booster requirements yet? No. But I have zero confidence it won't be required later on. Give it a year. We'll be debating it all over again. And round and round this thread goes.

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[Danno]

everyone should first think about their health condition before making such a decision

And bots should STFU

[mtuhockey33]

You're right.... so far. Not here yet, but the precedent is already being set in a few other countries that have set expiration dates on vaccination status, in anticipation of requiring boosters to stay current. That conversation is being had here I assure you.

Every step of the way, when some of us see something on the horizon, many here are like "Naaah. That won't happen. Don't be such a conspiracy theorist." And then sure enough, that very thing happens. One after another.

So do we have booster requirements yet? No. But I have zero confidence it won't be required later on. Give it a year. We'll be debating it all over again. And round and round this thread goes.

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you remember when vaccine passports were just a conspiracy theory?? Pepperidge farms remembers.

[MultiVerse]

Boosting healthy folks or people mild comorbidities is not going to stop the epidemic. At least 25% of adults are still completely unvaccinated and many of them are clustered together in communities bound by anti-vax beliefs — making those areas a potential reservoir for future outbreaks.

[old goat]

And bots should STFU

The bots are an improvement IMO.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

everyone should first think about their health condition before making such a decision

Sage advice


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

You're right.... so far. Not here yet, but the precedent is already being set in a few other countries that have set expiration dates on vaccination status, in anticipation of requiring boosters to stay current. That conversation is being had here I assure you.

Every step of the way, when some of us see something on the horizon, many here are like "Naaah. That won't happen. Don't be such a conspiracy theorist." And then sure enough, that very thing happens. One after another.

So do we have booster requirements yet? No. But I have zero confidence it won't be required later on. Give it a year. We'll be debating it all over again. And round and round this thread goes.

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I don’t see a problem with booster requirements, my immunization record is currently up to date for boosters that I’m already required to have. I’ll take a booster at work when they make it available. I won’t jump the line. I would like to protect myself, my loved ones and the patients as much as I can. There’s really no downside.

I don’t think vaccine passports were ever a conspiracy theory, it was an idea being discussed so that certain non essential businesses could continue to operate during this ongoing pandemic. It’s a great tool to allow safer access and identify the people who are concerned and willing to do their part for the greater good. I have to wonder if the same folks doing all the hand wringing about vaccines and passports would have bitched about rationing during WWII. Sacrifice for the greater good and all that patriotic stuff. ?

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[DougW]

I guess about 30 people are planning on quitting at my work if they have to get vaccines.

Hopefully they are all above me in seniority.

Look at the bright side. You move up if they quit or die.

[jono]

Always look on the bright side of death...

[DougW]

Ok with mandates and vax passports what is that going to do overall vax rate? Once you have nothing else to do what is the plan? Do you just let it go to a moderate to slow burn to go through the remaining part of the pop that is hard core. W+
hat 20% in US and maybe 10% in Canada? It won't be about protecting lives but controlling the rate so health care system is not over loaded. Maybe even have covid parties when rates are too low?

[XXX-er]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid...xers-1.6188806

Reaserchers screw up the math and are now withdrawing the paper

[old_newguy]

Ok with mandates and vax passports what is that going to do overall vax rate? Once you have nothing else to do what is the plan? Do you just let it go to a moderate to slow burn to go through the remaining part of the pop that is hard core. W+
hat 20% in US and maybe 10% in Canada? It won't be about protecting lives but controlling the rate so health care system is not over loaded. Maybe even have covid parties when rates are too low?

I’d argue this would not be different than what is currently happening.

[highangle]

Boosting healthy folks or people mild comorbidities is not going to stop the epidemic. At least 25% of adults are still completely unvaccinated and many of them are clustered together in communities bound by anti-vax beliefs — making those areas a potential reservoir for future outbreaks.

And future variants.


Experts say the number of unvaccinated people in the United States is a key reason coronavirus variants are emerging.
They explain that the virus replicates quicker in unvaccinated people, increasing the chance of mutations.
They’re concerned that new COVID-19 cases will continue to rise as variants spread and people still refuse to get vaccinated.

[CascadeLuke]

All this stuff is just too much self esteem.

You’ll never see me holding a sign about how my life matters. not taking shots because my opinion is better than the cdc. Trying to make some militia to take over the government. Organizing political movements entirely around me me me I’m important, around a series of “I wanna” and “I don’t wanna” personal feelings about life.

Such fucking pussies. Fucking pussies. Fuck you! Get your shots, do your part, don’t be a dick. You don’t matter, your opinions aren’t important, we all have to do things we don’t wanna…deal with it you god damn diaper babies.

True AF

[MontuckyFried]

And future variants.

Experts say the number of unvaccinated people in the United States is a key reason coronavirus variants are emerging.

Delta's the main variant we've been dealing with this summer. As in 99% of hospitalizations have been due to it. Delta's out of India.

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[jono]

Delta's the main variant we've been dealing with this summer. As in 99% of hospitalizations have been due to it. Delta's out of India.

So you're saying our homegrown variants will inherit that accent they banned from the Simpson's? Checks out.

[Danno]

[MultiVerse]

I'm hoping we have some studies underway that give a measurement of reliability of seropositivity, or a titer, as a measure of protection. Seems to me that most of our data is based on PCR+ but if you have the right Ab assay and your test is to determine protection against severe illness and death then antibody based testing should lean toward lower sensitivity and higher specificity because if you have measurable Ab shouldn't there be good B/T response? But we need data and I don't see why we don't have that yet. I'd think that data probably is already in some datasets if it could be pulled out.

There's been a lot of research on the humoral response focusing on the B cell along with the CD4+ and CD8+ T cell responses and how it all fits together with SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies (Abs) (IgG, IgM, IgA) recognizing the receptor-binding domain. As you can imagine it gets pretty complicated and quickly falls into MoFo's domain.

The main thing is there's a lot more to it than antibody levels and viral loads. Which means you'd have to biopsy lymph nodes to fully determine the B & T response. There are studies where they've done that and so far this is what it looks like ranked / clustered in terms of inducing robust memory B & T cell secondary responses:

• 1 dose + prior COVID provides the most robust immunity
• Naive 2 doses with a long 16 week interval between is almost as good

• Prior Severe Covid
• Naive 2 doses given over a short interval ← could be an argument for +1 boost

• Prior Mild Covid

[MultiVerse]

And future variants.

Yep. And with Delta's viral fitness dominating all other strains the next variant of concern will likely emerge as a sub-lineage from within Delta.

[old goat]

Ok with mandates and vax passports what is that going to do overall vax rate? Once you have nothing else to do what is the plan?

Think about what you just wrote there. Obviously, if there is nothing else to do there is nothing else to do. Fortunately we are nowhere near the point of having nothing left to do. The US is vaccinating nearly 700K people per day. As time goes on being unvaccinated will become increasingly inconvenient and most hard core antivaxers will quietly get the shots. The goal was, is, and will be protecting lives, protecting the health care system, and preventing the spread of the virus--all of the above. I don't know if you're serious about Covid parties--but people who get covid at covid parties are going to die, clog up the health care system, and spread the virus--exactly the opposite of what the goal is. (I'm old enough to remember when girls were deliberately exposed to rubella but that's a special case. At a time when most people eventually got rubella and because reinfection was unheard of, it made sense for girls to get rubella before they had a chance to get pregnant, because of the devastating effects of rubella on the fetus.)

BTW, Sacramento teachers union has come out in favor of a requirement being considered by the school board to mandate vaccination for all students--based on age and FDA approval for under 12's of course.

[ill-advised strategy]

you remember when vaccine passports were just a conspiracy theory?? Pepperidge farms remembers.

When I had to show vaccination records to be a lifeguard in 1994, was that tyranny? Or just now, with this one?