To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

**Benny Profane** · 08-17-2021, 01:05 PM

WH just announced that third shot/booster will be recommended for all of us, and they used the data from Isreal to decide that.

**rideit** · 08-17-2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Wyoming military department is a disturbing phrase.

But still probably more lethal than the Connecticut Military Department (outside of Groton).
The rest of WY is, actually, prettily militant.

**Benny Profane** · 08-17-2021, 01:07 PM

Population is probably better armed than the National Guard.

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 08-17-2021, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

.... "He says it’s also critical to vaccinate those who still haven’t received their first or second doses, and to return to the masking and social distancing Israel thought it had left behind—but has begun to reinstate.

Context, what does it matter?

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**rideit** · 08-17-2021, 01:31 PM

Anti-vaxxer fatigue

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...fusers/619716/

**old goat** · 08-17-2021, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Even though the antivaxx crowd is having field day with Israel, the vaccines are doing a really good job—just not as spectacular as before—in Israel too. Comparing infection and disease rates (per 100k) and not just raw counts to compare unvaccinated and vaccinated groups shows high efficacy protecting against severe disease, even for Delta, and even in these Israel.

Israel data as of August 15, 2021 broken out by age group:

Attachment 382640

Antivaxxers' are going to antivaxx. It seems pandemic intervention skeptics however should be praising the vaccines from rooftops and arguing for universal vaccination so we can get back to normal.

Is that cumulative or interval data and if the latter what interval? Source?

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 08-17-2021, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by rideit

Anti-vaxxer fatigue

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...fusers/619716/

I’m at that point but it extends to my vaccination hesitant coworkers as well

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**LongShortLong** · 08-17-2021, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Context, what does it matter?

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Getting to a reasonable level of morbidity and mortality. Between the lines I'm reading we need a suppression strategy to achieve this, but haven't admitted it publicly yet. Maybe more vaccination would do it, but I'm guessing Israel would have political problems with that path. But maybe I'm stuck on my personal bias from early 2020.

**MultiVerse** · 08-17-2021, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by old goat

Is that cumulative or interval data and if the latter what interval? Source?

The source is the Israeli government data dashboard and the data is cumulative to date:

https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general

English slides are also available:

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/report...2082021-01.pdf

Note on page 7 how the government slides show total efficacy against severe illness is only ~60%. They arrive at that number by dividing the risk ratios of Fully Vaxxed over Not Vaxxed to get Vavccine Efficacy vs. Severe disease for the population as a whole. However, doing the same thing but instead by age group gives the numbers in the table above.

**LongShortLong** · 08-17-2021, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by old goat

Is that cumulative or interval data and if the latter what interval? Source?

If you're looking the second to last column, you fell in the anti-vaxxer deception trap. Rather than compare against the same age group, it compares against 30yo's. Additionally, by including both fractions and multiples, it confuses and angers the innumerate. The "efficacy" column is the useful one.

**Buster Highmen** · 08-17-2021, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by rideit

Anti-vaxxer fatigue

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...fusers/619716/

However, the population-level rejection of COVID-19 vaccines is a different phenomenon—and one that’s much more personally threatening to my colleagues and me. By refusing the most effective intervention, people are risking not only their own life but the lives of many around them. That includes those who cannot get vaccinated—my children among them. Because of the choice that vaccine refusers are making, my job may again force me to avoid embracing my children.

“What makes me the maddest,” one of my doctor friends told me, “is that these people will reject science right until the second they need everything I have to keep them alive, and then they feel that they can come to our door and be entitled to that help and that hard work.” This friend is characterizing the inconsistency in the behavior she sees in people declining a vaccine but then demanding medical care based on the same science. That inconsistency feels, to her and to other dedicated medical professionals trying to survive this pandemic, very much like dishonesty.

...

Unlike during the pre-vaccine phase of the pandemic, the current upsurge of suffering isn’t one that humanity has to go through. People are choosing it. And intent matters. Intent is the difference between a child who goes hungry because their parent can’t afford dinner and the one who goes hungry because their parent won’t buy them dinner. Having the ability to provide relief but not do so is cruel. To many medical providers working today, the rejection of lifesaving COVID-19 vaccines feels like a giant “Fuck you” from 29 percent of American adults. We will keep providing the best care possible, but they are making our job much harder.

**ill-advised strategy** · 08-17-2021, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

I'm not sure the why for this recco except that Fauci has been pretty focused on "if the studies tested this way (Pfizerx2 gets Pfizer booster), then we have data for this way, and we should do it this way because we already shoot from the hip more than we want." It is the same reason we stuck to the dose spacing from the Phase III trials while some other countries decided to make up a new plan that varied from the study protocol based on a visit from the good idea fairy. Well, in this case, it seems that was a good decision for UK and Canada. Many of us felt "this is EUA approved based on the study data with a strict protocol, so let's not just change the process so that the safety and efficacy data may not match what we are actually doing." Well, new data, new plan, hooray!

I haven't been able to watch the 8/13 ACIP meeting recording, probably will have discussion...

Random message of “thanks for everything you do” ^^

Thanks for posting.

**The AD** · 08-17-2021, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by frorider

IKR? Between mofro and mtuhockeyTBI, we have expertise up in here.

If only I could decide which one of them to listen to...

**old goat** · 08-17-2021, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

The source is the Israeli government data dashboard and the data is cumulative to date:

https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general

English slides are also available:

https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/report...2082021-01.pdf

Note on page 7 how the government slides show total efficacy against severe illness is only ~60%. They arrive at that number by dividing the risk ratios of Fully Vaxxed over Not Vaxxed to get Vavccine Efficacy vs. Severe disease for the population as a whole. However, doing the same thing but instead by age group gives the numbers in the table above.

Thank you. I looked at the Israeli dashboard before I asked but couldn't make sense out of it. 5 years of Hebrew school and I can't speak a word. But I think I do almost as well as Google translate.

KQ · 08-17-2021, 03:30 PM

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott tests positive for Covid-19

(CNN)Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has tested positive for Covid-19, his office said Tuesday.

Abbott, a Republican, is fully vaccinated against the virus, his office said in a statement, adding that he is tested daily and this is his first positive result.

He is currently isolated in the governor's mansion and is receiving Regeneron's monoclonal antibody treatment, the statement said.

Abbott is in good health and not currently experiencing any symptoms. Texas first lady Cecilia Abbott has tested negative and everyone with whom Abbott has been in close contact has been notified, the statement said.

**skaredshtles** · 08-17-2021, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by KQ

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott tests positive for Covid-19

(CNN)Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has tested positive for Covid-19

**ill-advised strategy** · 08-17-2021, 04:58 PM

I just got pretty frustrated with a ski friend who’s been sending me antivax stuff since the vaccine existed.

Just, at some point you lose any patience and say why are you going to believe random twitter kooks more than your real life friends with real life family in the healthcare field?
I just sent him 50 photos of my microbiology homework from 2010…like hey stupid, can you follow this material? No? It’s community college microbiology…. Imagine what actual physicians and researchers have to learn. And you and the twitter machine are going to EXPOSE THE CONSPIRACY …. Some angry hillbilly with an iphone? Cool, same credit as your family doctor. What the fuck.

I dunno man, the obstinacy in play is fucking incredible.

In his mind vaccinated people are the problem and the kook doctors on twitter telling people “it’s all vaccinated people in the hospital” and “look at the disaster in iceland”…those are heroes trying to save humanity from bill gates.

It’s unreal sometimes and I’m just totally out of ability to empathize with all these mental midgets anymore. Fuck em.

**mfcf13** · 08-17-2021, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

However, the population-level rejection of COVID-19 vaccines is a different phenomenon—and one that’s much more personally threatening to my colleagues and me. By refusing the most effective intervention, people are risking not only their own life but the lives of many around them. That includes those who cannot get vaccinated—my children among them. Because of the choice that vaccine refusers are making, my job may again force me to avoid embracing my children.

“What makes me the maddest,” one of my doctor friends told me, “is that these people will reject science right until the second they need everything I have to keep them alive, and then they feel that they can come to our door and be entitled to that help and that hard work.” This friend is characterizing the inconsistency in the behavior she sees in people declining a vaccine but then demanding medical care based on the same science. That inconsistency feels, to her and to other dedicated medical professionals trying to survive this pandemic, very much like dishonesty.

...

Unlike during the pre-vaccine phase of the pandemic, the current upsurge of suffering isn’t one that humanity has to go through. People are choosing it. And intent matters. Intent is the difference between a child who goes hungry because their parent can’t afford dinner and the one who goes hungry because their parent won’t buy them dinner. Having the ability to provide relief but not do so is cruel. To many medical providers working today, the rejection of lifesaving COVID-19 vaccines feels like a giant “Fuck you” from 29 percent of American adults. We will keep providing the best care possible, but they are making our job much harder.

While I think vaccine passports will never work and will cause these people to go from paranoia to full blown hysteria.... could we have them opt out of hospital care for Covid symptoms if they refuse to get a vaccine? I mean, most of them say it's a pretend virus anyways so they shouldn't have a problem with opting out of covidd treatment at a hospital.

Caveat: They could obviously still receive care for any other condition.

**Bunion 2020** · 08-17-2021, 05:17 PM

Counterfeit Vaccine cards becoming a big business.

Here is an idea, if caught with one of these the very 1st step is for the person to get a vaccination.

It’s unreal sometimes and I’m just totally out of ability to empathize with all these mental midgets anymore. Fuck em.

X2

**uglymoney** · 08-17-2021, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

I just got pretty frustrated with a ski friend who’s been sending me antivax stuff since the vaccine existed.

Just, at some point you lose any patience and say why are you going to believe random twitter kooks more than your real life friends with real life family in the healthcare field?
I just sent him 50 photos of my microbiology homework from 2010…like hey stupid, can you follow this material? No? It’s community college microbiology…. Imagine what actual physicians and researchers have to learn. And you and the twitter machine are going to EXPOSE THE CONSPIRACY …. Some angry hillbilly with an iphone? Cool, same credit as your family doctor. What the fuck.

I dunno man, the obstinacy in play is fucking incredible.

In his mind vaccinated people are the problem and the kook doctors on twitter telling people “it’s all vaccinated people in the hospital” and “look at the disaster in iceland”…those are heroes trying to save humanity from bill gates.

It’s unreal sometimes and I’m just totally out of ability to empathize with all these mental midgets anymore. Fuck em.

Mutual ski friend?

His garbage antivax shit goes in my spam. Jesus H frustrating trying to reason with him. Super fun guy to hang out with but...

Wife did get poke 3 this morning. Still at work. Must not be killing her yet.

**seano732** · 08-17-2021, 06:48 PM

Welp, I called it....Our Gov just reinstituted face masks in all indoor facilities, and i just received the following e-mail from the girls school district:

" Effective immediately, [insert school district here] will be remote learning only....We are hopeful to return to in person learning on Monday, August 23rd...."

We are so fucked. I don't even know what to say anymore. And NM has done a fairly decent job as far as vaccinations go.....Like whatever has happened will go away by Monday....Christ on a crutch, anyone got some island property they wanna unload????? Both my girls are hysterical right now.......,

**mcski** · 08-17-2021, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Counterfeit Vaccine cards becoming a big business.

Here is an idea, if caught with one of these the very 1st step is for the person to get a vaccination.

X2

With a non standard needle in the genitals

**skaredshtles** · 08-17-2021, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by seano732

Welp, I called it....Our Gov just reinstituted face masks in all indoor facilities, and i just received the following e-mail from the girls school district:

" Effective immediately, [insert school district here] will be remote learning only....We are hopeful to return to in person learning on Monday, August 23rd...."

We are so fucked. I don't even know what to say anymore. And NM has done a fairly decent job as far as vaccinations go.....Like whatever has happened will go away by Monday....Christ on a crutch, anyone got some island property they wanna unload????? Both my girls are hysterical right now.......,

Our district just yesterday went to mandatory masks inside the schools for K-12. Which I'm glad for... but am anticipating the usual "freedumb" bullshit will increase over the next few weeks.

**splat** · 08-17-2021, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by jono

Easy. You already got that one, man.

I mean, I'm just guessing you did. But it does seem like a safe guess.

Two Bootleg, two Pfizer, and one J&J. If mofro does a vaccine, I'd take that one, too.

**splat** · 08-17-2021, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by seano732

Welp, I called it....Our Gov just reinstituted face masks in all indoor facilities, and i just received the following e-mail from the girls school district:

" Effective immediately, [insert school district here] will be remote learning only....We are hopeful to return to in person learning on Monday, August 23rd...."

We are so fucked. I don't even know what to say anymore. And NM has done a fairly decent job as far as vaccinations go.....Like whatever has happened will go away by Monday....Christ on a crutch, anyone got some island property they wanna unload????? Both my girls are hysterical right now.......,

Get them vaxxed, seano. Most pharmacies are giving them away. You might have to lie a bit.