To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Skidog]

Also kinda sucks that all the data is collected passively now. The CDC isnt tracking breakthroughs unless they go to hospital. Even the CDC site says the #'s are likely underreported.

[MultiVerse]

So vaccinated people who get a breakthrough will typically gain mucosal antibodies

There are also T cells in the nose. T cells in the nose help memory B cells produce new antibodies adapted to variants.

Also kinda sucks that all the data is collected passively now. The CDC isnt tracking breakthroughs unless they go to hospital. Even the CDC site says the #'s are likely underreported.

It does suck. Economists refer things like this as 'State Capacity' but another way to think about it is cultural capacity. As a culture we don't want the CDC to have these kinds of capabilities. Texas, for example, is not reporting all the data as required by the law and there's not much anyone can do about it.

Fortunately the UK is performing randomized testing which approximates RCTs so using them as a proxy we know the vaccines reduce transmission.

[wooley12]

Wanna show some evidence of proof since that’s what you guys seem to get a hard on for?

No. By now proof is intuitive unless your brain has been infested by internet worms. Now, go back to sleep.

[Skidog]

No. Scroll up.

I think i found it...has more to do with Serotypes which has not been concluded with SARS-CoV-2. If it stays like it is, I think i understand how the vax would prevent further mutation.

Thanks all for making me learn something.

[MultiVerse]

One important facet that seemingly gets skipped over at every opportunity is the behavior of vaxed vs unvaxed towards safety protocols.
Vaxxed are far more likely to take safety precautions (masking, social distancing, etc)

Even assuming that's true we also know the vax'd are more likely to get tested. If the unvax'd aren't getting tested except for severe cases at the same rate as the vax'd then that makes vaccines appear much less effective than they really are.

[old_newguy]

did you miss this part?

Breakthrough infections again accounted for about 40% of all cases reported in Massachusetts last week.

Yes, yes I did.

[SumJongGuy]

Even assuming that's true we also know the vax'd are more likely to get tested.

Where are you getting that? Anecdotally, I can say I'm not getting tested unless I have a good reason to believe I'm likely positive since I'm vaxxed. The CDC was (still is?) saying that vaxed people don't need to isolate after exposure to a confirmed positive person anymore. Our local schools are saying if my kid was around a confirmed positive person and is vaxed.. OR was wearing a mask at the time of exposure we're good to go and do NOT have to isolate.(this I am certain of). Are some of the vaxed people, especially high risk complications folks testing more now that it's easier to get tested? Yep, but I'd need to see data showing that ALL or even most vaxxed people are testing more than unvaxxed..

[old_newguy]

@ mtuhockey Your assumptions are wrong, the virus is less likely to mutate in vaccinated individuals. Previously infected vaccinated individuals, people with hybrid immunity, stand an even better chance of preventing mutations. They're even immune to the original SARS.

Right, but the “experts” like Brett Weinstein and company are happy to push the “vaccines are putting evolutionary pressure on the virus to create variants” message out there for the geniuses to pick up and run with.

[buttahflake]

Social Worker, they piss test for that?

[MultiVerse]

Where are you getting that? Anecdotally, I can say I'm not getting tested unless I have a good reason to believe I'm likely positive since I'm vaxxed. The CDC was (still is?) saying that vaxed people don't need to isolate after exposure to a confirmed positive person anymore. Our local schools are saying if my kid was around a confirmed positive person and is vaxed.. OR was wearing a mask at the time of exposure we're good to go and do NOT have to isolate.(this I am certain of). Are some of the vaxed people, especially high risk complications folks testing more now that it's easier to get tested? Yep, but I'd need to see data showing that ALL or even most vaxxed people are testing more than unvaxxed..

Consider religious communities etc., you're extrapolating from your own experience but there are lots of rural or conservative or poor or minority communities that don't fit your intuition.

[Game Over]

This thread is moronic.

One side-> “looks like vaccines are not perfect…. what’s going to happen?”

Other side reads that as “since vaccines are not perfect what’s the point of getting vaxed” and in turn responds with “you are a antivax piece of shit who deserves to die!”

[old_newguy]

Where are you getting that? Anecdotally, I can say I'm not getting tested unless I have a good reason to believe I'm likely positive since I'm vaxxed. The CDC was (still is?) saying that vaxed people don't need to isolate after exposure to a confirmed positive person anymore. Our local schools are saying if my kid was around a confirmed positive person and is vaxed.. OR was wearing a mask at the time of exposure we're good to go and do NOT have to isolate.(this I am certain of). Are some of the vaxed people, especially high risk complications folks testing more now that it's easier to get tested? Yep, but I'd need to see data showing that ALL or even most vaxxed people are testing more than unvaxxed..

Getting tested is such a pain in the ass here. Needed a test last weekend because some one in our house was sick and it took me close to an hour to get a screening appointment set up and then had to drive 30 minutes to get a test a full 24 hours after getting the test, then waited a day for the results.

[MultiVerse]

lol @ steep... Once again your framing misses the mark.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

but, and I am honestly asking for education here, if we keep passing delta from vaxxed to vaxxed, doesnt that give it a chance to continue to mutate? The vax is obviously working at keeping people out of the hospital, but even if the entire world were vaxxed 100%, doesnt Delta still spin?

This has been explained many times in this thread and even on this page. If you’re vaccinated and test positive the virus will likely be defeated quickly. Mutations happen when the disease runs its course unchecked in unvaccinated people and a vanishingly small number of fully vaccinated people. The more people that are vaccinated makes it harder for the virus to replicate and spread even if some vaccinated are infected it’ll get to a point where the virus runs out of options.

It’s actually exhausting reading you and MF posting about this and how we’re idiots, dumbasses and slow in the uptake. Neither one of you really seem to read or comprehend what people post, read the articles and data that you link or really understand the gist of the articles.
Every article linked has the same take away, get vaccinated because being vaccinated makes you less likely to get sick, die or spread the virus. This is how all the vaccines that you’ve had in your life work and that’s why we don’t have to live with a bunch of potentially fatal and debilitating diseases.


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[Skidog]

Where are you getting that? Anecdotally, I can say I'm not getting tested unless I have a good reason to believe I'm likely positive since I'm vaxxed. The CDC was (still is?) saying that vaxed people don't need to isolate after exposure to a confirmed positive person anymore. Our local schools are saying if my kid was around a confirmed positive person and is vaxed.. OR was wearing a mask at the time of exposure we're good to go and do NOT have to isolate.(this I am certain of). Are some of the vaxed people, especially high risk complications folks testing more now that it's easier to get tested? Yep, but I'd need to see data showing that ALL or even most vaxxed people are testing more than unvaxxed..

Ive never gotten tested once during the entire pandemic. Ive never had any cause to. Daughter has had 2. Nobody else in my household.

My kids schools are saying the same thing as yours. Attempting to keep school closures to a minimum.

[Game Over]

lol @ steep... Once again your framing misses the mark.

You lack self awareness.
You’d also be better at science communication if you stopped.talking down to those trying to learn.

[mcski]

Right, but the “experts” like Brett Weinstein and company are happy to push the “vaccines are putting evolutionary pressure on the virus to create variants” message out there for the geniuses to pick up and run with.

This is currently the hot take talking point getting spewed around fb - vaccines will make covid worse!

The other two they’ve jumped on is claims that menstrual cycles being affected

And of course the swing for the fences claim that fauci is a liar that funded gain of function capabilities for a bioweapon to be used for evil bill gates secret plan to depopulate the world.

[mcphee]

This has been explained many times in this thread and even on this page. If you’re vaccinated and test positive the virus will likely be defeated quickly. Mutations happen when the disease runs its course unchecked in unvaccinated people and a vanishingly small number of fully vaccinated people. The more people that are vaccinated makes it harder for the virus to replicate and spread even if some vaccinated are infected it’ll get to a point where the virus runs out of options.

It’s actually exhausting reading you and MF posting about this and how we’re idiots, dumbasses and slow in the uptake. Neither one of you really seem to read or comprehend what people post, read the articles and data that you link or really understand the gist of the articles.
Every article linked has the same take away, get vaccinated because being vaccinated makes you less likely to get sick, die or spread the virus. This is how all the vaccines that you’ve had in your life work and that’s why we don’t have to live with a bunch of potentially fatal and debilitating diseases.


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In skidog’s defense, he’s shown understanding in what people have been getting at with vaccination in a post up above. Those other 2 are dug in because their feelings are hurt.

[MultiVerse]

You lack self awareness.
You’d also be better at science communication if you stopped.talking down to those trying to learn.

Why to do 'those trying to learn' always take so long to consider the responses? We went through all of this last week, and the week before, with a lot of the same people, you included. Based on many other threads your modus operandi in particular is to keep repeating the same claims over-and-over long after they've been debunked.

[Adolf Allerbush]

My wife told me she read that ivermectin can make women infertile. I found that pleasantly ironic.

[Skidog]

This has been explained many times in this thread and even on this page. If you’re vaccinated and test positive the virus will likely be defeated quickly. Mutations happen when the disease runs its course unchecked in unvaccinated people and a vanishingly small number of fully vaccinated people. The more people that are vaccinated makes it harder for the virus to replicate and spread even if some vaccinated are infected it’ll get to a point where the virus runs out of options.

It’s actually exhausting reading you and MF posting about this and how we’re idiots, dumbasses and slow in the uptake. Neither one of you really seem to read or comprehend what people post, read the articles and data that you link or really understand the gist of the articles.
Every article linked has the same take away, get vaccinated because being vaccinated makes you less likely to get sick, die or spread the virus. This is how all the vaccines that you’ve had in your life work and that’s why we don’t have to live with a bunch of potentially fatal and debilitating diseases.


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I dont doubt the effectiveness of vaccinations. I was wondering more about the mutations that might or might not occur. If you think we know that answer, I think thats incorrect. I still think there is a lot we dont know about this particular virus, and it will take time. I've protected myself and my family the best I can and will continue to do so.

Didnt it take about 5 years to get a good working polio vax? And as to the "gist" of the articles? What fucking GIST? there are key words you simply ignore. The "science" isnt set on any stone. Least I get that part.

[Skidog]

In skidog’s defense, he’s shown understanding in what people have been getting at with vaccination in a post up above. Those other 2 are dug in because their feelings are hurt.

Grassy ass.....

Im not butthurt from any response on here...its kinda the point of discussions isnt it? I dont choose my friends based on their beliefs alone.

[skaredshtles]

My wife told me she read that ivermectin can make women infertile.

[old_newguy]

This is currently the hot take talking point getting spewed around fb

The other two they’ve jumped on is claims that menstrual cycles being affected

And of course the swing for the fences claim that fauci is a liar that funded gain of function capabilities for a bioweapon to be used for evil bill gates secret plan to depopulate the world.

For some unhealthy reason I’m really latched onto understanding the Weinstein brothers motivations right now.

I think they are just anti-institution contrarians who speak like the PHds but they push some very weird narratives that don’t seem to mesh with their background.

Like, why is Brett Weinstein saying shit like “not using the available non-vaccine COVID therapies is shoveling money to vaccine big Pharma” (paraphrase). Which is just stupid on its face because the treatments cost way more than the vaccine. Yet he says it with such authority. Even just needing to go get some O2 is going to cost multiples more than a vaccine.

I can’t tell if they are generating the arguments or they are feeding back on the social media narratives.

It’s very strange.

And then I see the same stuff show up here.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

That was EXACTLY my point with Delta Viral loads...YES we shed them for less time, but it seems that during that "less time" we infect with nearly the same viral load and non vaxxed. Yes vaxxed less sick, but round and round she goes.

That’s your point but multiverse has explained why that’s wrong and so have others. You might have a brief period with the same viral load but less of that is viable in vaccinated people and then the viral infection doesn’t get a foothold and it dies. You don’t get sick, you don’t spread the virus and it won’t mutate because your body fights it off and it doesn’t have time to replicate or mutate.


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