To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[goldenboy]

Maybe the "evil CDC" just needs to stop using the word vaccine.

For the antivax hippies, maybe you start calling it "cell coaching". It's like life coaching, but different.

And for the antivax Trumpsters, start calling it "body border control". Tell them it's like having a big glorious wall and lots of agents making sure those brown people don't ruin the country.

[SumJongGuy]

You should totally be able to say no to getting any vaccine. However, you can't go anywhere without a mask in public indoors our out (where people gather) . You're not allowed inside any indoor place of employment without being 100% masked at all times. You even have to leave to eat or take a sip of water. And your kids should not be allowed inside any school or daycare where taking off the mask to eat or drink might be needed.

Let's treat potential COVID breath just like cigarette smoke. 100% covered every second in no smoking zones.

Have fun with that.

[summit]

Yeah nothing fishy at all. The CDC just coincidentally changed both the definition of vaccine and the definition of gain of function research just in the last few months. Nothing to do with Covid messaging at all, it was planned to be updated years ago.

Nothing to see here folks, move along. Do as we say.

I put effort in trying to engage you. I asked you many questions and tried to help you out. That is your response? Well it just confirms what you said last page: you are here to troll. OK, people like you suck. Your posts are not worth my time. Split, kook!

[skiJ]

RE: (Skidog)


like he says, he's just here to "stir the pot" - nothing meaningful to contribute ( probably cannot even understand the questions addressed to him )


troll. ( by definition; not name-calling )


g'bye again. skiJ

[::: :::]

Jezuz fuck…
Skidog has already demonstrated his NY-wont-back-down stubbornness & he has clearly stated he is here to troll.
He refuses to learn from his past actions.
He is too dumb to understand how logic or science or discussions work & is prepared to be an intentional asshole here as a result & has not just stated that, but reiterated it already in his few return posts…
Despite his claims to “community”, he clearly doesn’t understand how that works.
Just ban him already

[skiJ]

Maybe the "evil CDC" just needs to stop using the word vaccine.

For the antivax hippies, maybe you start calling it "cell coaching". It's like life coaching, but different.

And for the antivax Trumpsters, start calling it "body border control". Tell them it's like having a big glorious wall and lots of agents making sure those brown people don't ruin the country.

Thank you, goldenboy - I laughed -

Good stuff ^^^ there. Thank you. skiJ

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yeah because an outpatient surgery could NEVER result in complications that required overnight stays.

Wow I am glad I don't take medical advice from you. Talk about no critical thinking skills. Another tard.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app

It’s highly unusual, and a risk that we take. What’s the extent of your experience working in surgery? I’m well into my 33 year.


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[Lvovsky]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/albuqu...ry?id=81116226

Albuquerque hospitals enact crisis standards of care during 'unprecedented' time
The current level of activity is "unsustainable," a hospital official said.

[goldenboy]

It’s highly unusual, and a risk that we take. What’s the extent of your experience working in surgery? I’m well into my 33 year.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Skidog got a tonsillectomy and some ice cream in 1st grade. So basically, he knows just as much as you.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

It’s like the Main Chute trip report. Claim falsely how steep something is, get corrected and then double down. Pure hubris


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[uglymoney]

Great summary today by Dr. Katelyn Jetelina https://yourlocalepidemiologist.subs...e-transmission

Click the link for much better formatting than my copy and paste.

How do vaccines prevent transmission?
There is a common misconception that vaccinated people spread the virus as much as unvaccinated. I even received blowback from my holiday post because I said that a room full of vaccinated people with no other precautions didn’t pose a significant threat on the community.
I’m not surprised of the confusion given the suboptimal messaging from public health officials over the past year. But, vaccinated people do not spread the virus as much as unvaccinated. Not even close. Here’s how it works…
***Vaccines prevent infection in the first place***
Let’s say a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person are standing next to each other and both are exposed to the same amount of virus for the same amount of time. An equal playing field. The virus then enters both of the people’s nasal passageway. What happens next depends on vaccination status:
-For the unvaccinated person, viral particles try to find and invade cells. Once a virus particle enters the cell it starts replicating fast. We need a certain amount of virus to become contagious. The virus reaches this threshold and the person starts transmitting to others. The person is contagious for 24-48 hours before getting disease (i.e. showing symptoms).
-For the vaccinated person, the viral particles try to find host cells but the immune system (and particularly neutralizing antibodies) recognize the virus and quickly destroys it. Importantly, the virus is destroyed before entering host cells and, thus, cannot replicate. Because it can’t replicate, the vaccinated doesn’t become contagious. This phenomenon is called “sterilizing immunity”, which prevents infection from happening in the first place. Not everyone gets sterilizing immunity, but COVID19 vaccines help with approximately 50-75% reduction in initial infection risk.
This has a huge effect on transmission in the community. You cannot transmit an infection you never get.
***Reducing transmission among breakthrough cases***
But, vaccines aren’t perfect. For some unlucky few (and specifically those with high exposure jobs like healthcare), vaccine-induced immunity won’t be able to catch all the virus particles before finding cells. Once the virus finds a cell, it starts replicating enough virus to make the vaccinated person contagious. Then, this person typically gets asymptomatic disease, but some breakthrough cases get mild to severe disease.
The vaccine still kicks in though, making breakthrough cases less contagious than unvaccinated cases. Vaccines do this in two ways:
1. Clears the virus faster. The vaccinated are contagious for far fewer days than unvaccinated (average 3-6 days vs. 13-18 days with Delta). We’ve had three studies provide this evidence thus far: one in Singapore (here; see figure below), one among NBA (basketball) players (here), and one in the UK published in the Lancet (here). The faster the virus is cleared, the less it’s transmitted.
2. Reduces number of infectious particles. In the first few days, breakthrough cases have the same number of virus particles as unvaccinated (this is called viral load). But viral particles do not equal infectious particles. In fact, vaccinated have less infectious viral particles than unvaccinated. For example, in a study with healthcare workers, the vaccinated and unvaccinated had the same viral load. However, 69% vaccinated were positive for infectious virus compared to 85% unvaccinated positive for infectious virus. We also saw this in another study in China (here). The less infectious virus particles we have, the less the virus is transmitted.
So, in conclusion, the majority of vaccinated people won’t spread the virus if they are exposed. Among breakthrough cases, vaccines ensure less infectious virus for a shorter period of time. Together, transmission is significantly reduced.
***Boosters reduce transmission even more***
Unsurprisingly, boosters reduce transmission because they increase our neutralizing antibodies. Boosters increase the likelihood of preventing infection in the first place and, presumably, helps clear the virus faster among breakthrough cases. This week a preprint was released assessing this phenomenon for the first time. The study was a lot of mathematical models, but essentially a booster made a sizable impact in reducing individual transmission. Because of this, boosters decreased community transmission by 21-66%.
***What about infection-induced (“natural”) immunity?***
Some that are unvaccinated and survive COVID19 disease mount an immune response. This means they too have neutralizing antibodies and, because of this, their body acts much like the vaccinated: prevent infection and, thus, prevent transmission.
The problem is that this response is not guaranteed. For example, people with asymptomatic or mild disease may not mount a strong enough response for variants of concern but people who survive severe infection (i.e. hospitalization) do (here). If they don’t mount a response, they don’t have enough neutralizing antibodies to fend off infection and thus transmission.
If the unvaccinated mounts an immune response, the durability of protection is also variable. Infection-induced immunity lasts for at least 90 days and a maximum of 5 years. Mathematical models found that, on average, people will mount immunity against SARS-CoV-2 for 16 months.
Because of this, reinfection is much higher among unvaccinated. Two peer reviewed studies found the reinfection rate is 2.5-5 times higher among infection-induced immunity compared to vaccine-induced immunity (here, here).
***Bottom Line***
The majority of vaccinated people won’t spread the virus if they are exposed. Among breakthrough cases, vaccines ensure less infectious viral particles for a shorter period of time. Fully vaccinated people provide little to no threat to community transmission. Boosters also help. And those with infection-induced immunity may or may not help reduce transmission.
We desperately need pandemic off-ramps. What is our plan to transition into an endemic state? I continue to be surprised and disappointed that we still don’t have guidance on this from public health officials. But, a very safe “off-ramp” is vaccinated people. A room full of vaccinated people, for example at Thanksgiving, with no other precautions poses little to no threat to the larger community.
Love, YLE
P.S. I originally included how vaccines prevent long COVID19 too, but this post was getting too much for a Saturday morning. I’ll explain in the next. Stay tuned.

[skiJ]

money -

***bottom line***

I think it is there - the "off-ramp" from pandemic to endemic. maintaining immunity through vaccination. it's just not being presented as Policy yet, Because there are still (large) regions of the country where vaccination rates are dangerously low. and now

we are seeing Breakthrough cases associated with waning immunity.

booster rates are,,, Not high. I saw Six percent in October ; now there are a few states in the low-twenty percent, and lots of states where booster rates are in the teens (percentage).


I believe there is still A hope that we can approach 'population immunity' by 2024.
. . . it could again be a pivotal Election issue, and it is both a long time off, and Only two years from Now.


it's not Policy yet - but we have a vaccination program that is ,,, limiting the disease.

yes., few people are satisfied. but imagine where we might be without it.

so. maintain your immunity. ( or take your chances. )


but the hospitalization rate is Not 'kind of' similar for the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

and there are still Millions of people who are unvaccinated.


... maintain immunity through vaccination. it's a Good start. tj

[ill-advised strategy]

I put effort in trying to engage you. I asked you many questions and tried to help you out. That is your response? Well it just confirms what you said last page: you are here to troll. OK, people like you suck. Your posts are not worth my time. Split, kook!

Thanks for posting anyway, your takes on this stuff are useful for many others besides numbnuts.

[schindlerpiste]

Just got my booster. My first two were Moderna and this one was Pfizer. I just happen to see a truck in a parking lot and asked if I could get it. I mean none of the criteria except that it has been more than six months since my initial set of vaccinations. I was told that you don’t have to be 65 it doesn’t matter what your last shot was, so I went for it.

[XXX-er]

I knew what I was getting into. Longtime lurker. I do get a little kick out of shaking the hive. But I don’t have too much time on my hands anymore. Things I’ve learned skij seems like a genuinely nice person. Carl mega seems like a douche, if I was a roofer he would be pulling out roofing nails out of his tires for years to come. Poor skidog really likes tgr, his ban was pretty weak. is not healthy or productive. Covid sucks, everyones probably going to get it. Boosters make your dick bigger. Chances of a breakthrough infection are 1 and a million unless you live in maine😉 Peace bitches it’s almost ski season.
Hasta la vista, hopefully not tomorrow

" Wasting time, staring out your phone to argue with idiots "

well I for one are just glad you are not as stupid as you appeared

[The AD]

I read a biography of Sarah Palin back when she was relevant and still remember a passage from it. I think it was when she was first elected to office in Alaska. Some friend of hers gave her a book that you would assume would be of interest to her in her new position. She told the friend, essentially, "I'm not reading that. I already have my opinions so why would I care what anyone else has to say?" I think it was the first time I realized there are lots of people out there (including some in positions of power) who are actually opposed to learning anything new and it seems like it's getting worse all the time.

[CarlMega]

if you were a roofer youd be buff as fuck and pulling tang and paychecks not puttin nails in tires

10 out of 10 on that sausage grab. The poise. The composure. You're making it look easy.

[XXX-er]

Nothing is sacred anymore there are girls doing roofing youtubes now days

[The AD]

10 out of 10 on that sausage grab. The poise. The composure. You're making it look easy.

Those fingernails, though.

[glademaster]

Those fingernails, though.

"No glove, no love" is a literal statement in the SFB household.

[bennymac]

Doctors have been saying “you should get the flu shot even though you can still later get the flu” for as long as I can remember.

People know this fact - lots of times I’ve heard the retort “I don’t get the flu shot - you can still get the flu even if you’ve had it!”

Yet through the magic of “troll quoting” I get to see that skidog thinks the idea that vaccines aren’t 100% defense against a virus and its mutations is a new concept to the CDC that is related to covid and he’s found it in the fine print.

What a time to be alive.

[summit]

Herd immunity had faded from achievability a mere 6-7 months after vaccine deployment through a combination of Delta (high R0) and Disinformation (vaccine hesitancy plateauing uptake).

Even mandates are simply a demand that those sitting in the leaky life boat with their arms crossed partake in the bailing efforts rather than peeing in he rising waters.

Through mandates, boosters, and ongoing infections of the unvaccinated, we will reach a seasonal endemic steady state by mid-winter or spring, optimistically.

It is possible nasal vaccines will get us to herd immunity next fall...

[bodywhomper]

Just got my 11yo twins their first dose today. Time for donuts. Woot!

[concretejungle]

Just got my 11yo twins their first dose today. Time for donuts. Woot!

That’s what we did after as well. Good day all around.

[old goat]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...ity/ar-AAQCZMW

CDC shifts pandemic goals away from reaching herd immunity

That article does not say what the headline claims. One guy at the CDC thinks attaining herd immunity is complicated and may not be possible. That is not a change of goals--even if that were an official CDC pronouncement. It is a recognition of the reality that too many people are not getting vaccinated. The goal is still to try to end the pandemic by getting enough people vaccinated--because there is no other way. I repeat--there is no other way.

Dr Jetelina's piece is right on until she get's to this:
"We desperately need pandemic off-ramps. What is our plan to transition into an endemic state? I continue to be surprised and disappointed that we still don’t have guidance on this from public health officials. But, a very safe “off-ramp” is vaccinated people."

There is an off ramp and only one off ramp and it has been clear from the beginning and repeatedly expressed by public health officials at all levels--vaccination. The media and random critics in and out of the medical, epidemiological, and public health communities love to blame the "authorities" for the failure to control the pandemic, out of frustration with the obstinance and perverseness of their fellow citizens who refuse to do what is necessary. The idea that if somehow the message were better this would all go away is bullshit. The message has been clear; it has been drowned out by the voices of those who stand to gain from the persistence of the pandemic. Put the blame where it belongs.

Starting with the right wing judges who shot down OSHA's clearly legal and constitutional employer mandate.