To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Deebased]

This is utter bullshit. We send people home that come through the ER and test positive for Covid all day long. No one with a scraped knee testing positive for Covid is getting a room unless they’re in respiratory distress and even then they might go home with oxygen. There are no rooms for this. How can you just make shit up?


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Let me help you since you clearly want to spread as much false or locally irrelevant information as possible

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...eading/620062/

[Deebased]

I read what Deeb posted and was thinking "damn, that's crazy are they really doing that?" so I asked a few of my Dr. friends in Oregon (Kaiser and OHSU) and they echoed similar comments as you. People with mild symptoms or are asymptomatic are not staying at the hospital merely because they tested positive for COVID-19. As you say, they would need to be in respiratory distress.

Yes they are really doing that. OHSU is a prime example. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...eading/620062/

[MultiVerse]

yes, BETTER, not UNPROTECTED ....

Define Better now...if the difference ENOUGH?

From the previous page, according to UK data getting an mRNA vaccine after having Covid cuts the risk of infection in half.


Also from the previous page, the chart summarizing the UK study data shows mRNA > previous infection > AZ against a low viral burden. Whereas against a high viral burden all vaccinated people had fewer symptoms when a breakthrough infection occurred compared with previous infection:

Attachment 387387

[MagnificentUnicorn]

but we should ignore prior infection altogether? Thats my point...address that...

you can't, i believe honestly, say that prior infection isnt "enough". We all still can get sick vaxxed or not, we still seem to shed same viral loads (close depending on study). Still unknown, or I havent seen, data on viral loads with prior+vax are any different.

Never sick = get vaccinated no question your odds are better
Vaccinated = safe, but still can get sick and make others sick, even if they are vaccinated
Prior Covid = studies seem to point to it being = to or maybe possibly better than 2x vaccine in protection terms. Still can get sick and get other sick
Prior Covid + Vax = Studies seem to point to lesser symptoms/little to no hospitalization. Can still get sick, can still make others sick.

Drop unvaccinated/never sick, and tell me how any of those are vastly different?

We simply need a test that proves you have the necessary protection, its not immunity for any of us.

Nobody is ignoring prior infection, it’s being carefully tracked by the study referenced in your link. Look at the chart in post # 14605 above. It shows mRNA vaccine performing quite a bit better than prior infection. Like many percentage points, 86% to 78% iirc. It’s kind of like the difference between slope angles of 40, 45 and 50 degrees. There’s quite a bi of difference in steepness. That’s why it’s still important to get vaccinated after infection, it’s free, safe and we know the efficacy. The arduous task of testing people is time consuming and costly, orders of magnitude more than getting a safe effective vaccine that will let us get back to normal even though you can still get infected. You’re less likely to pass it on and a lot less likely to get hospitalized and/or die. That’s how herd immunity with vaccination works. I’m not an MD or scientist but I can understand this.


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[Adolf Allerbush]

Yes they are really doing that. OHSU is a prime example. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...eading/620062/

That confirms what I pointed out after discussing with actual doctors at OHSU...which is that merely having a positive covid-19 test doesn't mean you will be automatically put in a hospital bed...you claimed that anyone going into a hospital for something as minor as a broken finger, will be put into a hospital bed if they also have a positive COVID-19 test. That's not what the Atlantic piece says:

But there are many COVID patients in the hospital with fairly mild symptoms, too, who have been admitted for further observation on account of their comorbidities, or because they reported feeling short of breath. Another portion of the patients in this tally are in the hospital for something unrelated to COVID, and discovered that they were infected only because they were tested upon admission.

[Deebased]

That confirms what I pointed out after discussing with actual doctors at OHSU...which is that merely having a positive covid-19 test doesn't mean you will be automatically put in a hospital bed...you claimed that anyone going into a hospital for something as minor as a broken finger, will be put into a hospital bed if they also have a positive COVID-19 test. That's not what the Atlantic piece says:

Thats fair.

If they're fat, they break a finger and test positive for Covid they get a bed.

The point that many are in the hospital "with covid as opposed to from covid" still stands

[DougW]

Because people don't want to be told what to do.

Also because a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.. ever heard that expression? Well the internet is proving that over and over.

Isn't that the whole Dunning Kruger thing. Now there's a graph to show the relationship. All I know ( and hope) is that I'm at the bottom of the bathtub part of that curve atleast for covid.

Though I'd have to say this thread used to make me smarter now not so much.

[bennymac]

Everything you need to know about Skid OG is in the Alta 2/27/08 thread.


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You can also reference last months 9/11 anniversary thread where he goes off the rails completely.

[MultiVerse]

and it’s been shown that some people who get the vaccine don’t even develop antibodies! But we don’t need to test those people too! They’re immune because they got the vaccine!! Fuck testing everyone equally; we just want to be right!

No single lab result will tell you how immune you are to Covid-19. That includes measuring spike protein antibodies. There is no magic number. Antibody tests are not validated for that purpose.

And this is true for post-vaccine as well as post-recovery — both of which are natural forms of immunity. Maybe someday we can “check for immunity” with a simple blood test but that doesn't exist yet.

[jono]

and it’s been shown that some people who get the vaccine don’t even develop antibodies! But we don’t need to test those people too! They’re immune because they got the vaccine!! Fuck testing everyone equally; we just want to be right!

I'm glad to see you can post images. You have a phone pic of your test results? I've been vaccinated, but I would like to get a good antigen test to help me decide how safe I am to interact with, whether I should rush to get a booster, etc. Mofro posted some good background, but no brand names or anything yet. Which test did you use?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Let me help you since you clearly want to spread as much false or locally irrelevant information as possible

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...eading/620062/

Let me help you. We do have patients in the hospital that are part of the Covid census that showed up for another problem and tested positive for Covid. If that person had a mild or asymptotic case but the problem they went to the ER with required an inpatient stay they get admitted. They might not be getting treatment for Covid but are still included in the census because they tested positive. If the disease progresses they might wind up in PCU, ICU or dead. I don’t need an Atlantic article to explain this.


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[MultiVerse]

The point that many are in the hospital "with covid as opposed to from covid" still stands

I've made the same point myself. But let's avoid the fallacy that because some people are in the hospital "with covid as opposed to from covid" means hospitals are lying about severe Covid and ICU wards filled with Covid patients. Because this is happening:

https://twitter.com/summerbrennan/st...06675325476867

[bennymac]

Yeah morgue trucks and military call outs and triaged ICU care and shipping patients out of state is from….wait let me check….scraped knee patients being admitted for covid.

Or as our self-styled brilliant woke realist spells it: “scrapped knee” 😆

[jono]

On the other hand, what DB is really saying is this: some of the vaccinated/COVID+ people in hospitals are there for other things. If vax/+ make up, say, 3% of all COVID patients, then the vaccines are working better than it otherwise appears.

How much may be debated, but the fact that there are any vaccinated people being included in the stats for other reasons is yet another argument for vaccination.

[MultiVerse]

^ Heh, it's all about the framing I suppose but that's essentially what the VA study discused in DB's Atlantic article found.

[The AD]

I've made the same point myself. But let's avoid the fallacy that because some people are in the hospital "with covid as opposed to from covid" means hospitals are lying about severe Covid and ICU wards filled with Covid patients. Because this is happening:

https://twitter.com/summerbrennan/st...06675325476867

There was also absolutely nothing in that Atlantic article to support Deebased's supposition that hospitals are admitting anyone who tests positive for Covid primarily to pad their bottom line.

Easiest ways for hospitals to stay in the black when not doing elective surgeries...At least according to the Atlantic.

[dunfree]

So derpbased lied and milked another 20 posts of attention? Shocking.

[The AD]

On the other hand, what DB is really saying is this: some of the vaccinated/COVID+ people in hospitals are there for other things. If vax/+ make up, say, 3% of all COVID patients, then the vaccines are working better than it otherwise appears.

How much may be debated, but the fact that there are any vaccinated people being included in the stats for other reasons is yet another argument for vaccination.

Yeah, that was the take away from the article I got. Yes, there are vaccinated people in the hospital with Covid. That doesn't mean that all those people have severe Covid.

[supermodel159]

https://fortune.com/education/busine...ovid-19-cases/

"Harvard requires that all community members—students, faculty, staff, and researchers—be vaccinated. As of Sept. 22 figures, 96% of Harvard employees and 95% of Harvard students were vaccinated."

Hmmm.

[bagtagley]

Can we please stop responding to the prior infection bullshit? I don't know who these people are that haven't been following this thread that are going to stumble upon it and be mislead, but if they can read more than a few posts and come to any conclusion other than vaccination is the only reasonable way forward, they're a lost cause and can't be saved. My 10 year old understands this, FFS. It's not even that complex or nuanced.

[The AD]

https://fortune.com/education/busine...ovid-19-cases/

"Harvard requires that all community members—students, faculty, staff, and researchers—be vaccinated. As of Sept. 22 figures, 96% of Harvard employees and 95% of Harvard students were vaccinated."

Hmmm.

“In recent days, we’ve seen a steady rise in breakthrough infections among our student population, despite high vaccination rates and frequent testing,” HBS spokesperson Mark Cautela said in a statement on Monday.

He shouldn't have said "despite...frequent testing" because odds are that frequent testing is what found most of the infections that would have gone unnoticed otherwise. HBS set up a process to quickly identify and mitigate Covid outbreaks and it seems like it's doing what it was intended to do.

[teleee]

Can we please stop responding to the prior infection bullshit? I don't know who these people are that haven't been following this thread that are going to stumble upon it and be mislead, but if they can read more than a few posts and come to any conclusion other than vaccination is the only reasonable way forward, they're a lost cause and can't be saved. My 10 year old understands this, FFS. It's not even that complex or nuanced.

A-FUCKING-MEN!!

And, I am not a big fan of the ban hammer, but how many fucking chances do the idiots get?

Oh, you didn't know there were "rules"? Let's make something clear. This was posted in the vaccine thread weeks ago:



Everyone was warned that the vaccine thread is somewhat special in the padded room, and that intentionally trolling in there, or posting bullshit misinformation in there, would not be tolerated. We have lots of experts providing useful info during a global pandemic, and we don't want to fuck that up. FFS, we even have a guy who is actually working on the life-saving vaccines taking his time to answer questions in there; it's not a run of the mill shit that annoys you redhead midget porn thread.

Then, weeks later, you openly admitted to trolling in here, and it was most definitely noticed by many. And so you got the exact same warning, except directed explicitly at you.



There was even a recognition that trolling in general is fine, but trolling in there was not. Again, this was something explicitly stated in the thread weeks earlier. And as far as "threats" go, that warning you got was pretty damn mild. So quit with the victim bullshit that this was all sprung on you by the power tripping mod team. You're not the victim, you're the perp. And trust us, we don't want to moderate a goddam thing -- we're maggots first through 49th and moderators 50th -- but jackasses like you sometimes force us to act, because everyone else is fucking sick of your shit. So instead of taking immediate action, we poked a little fun at your expense. Big deal.

So sit down and shut up, contribute like a normal person, or keep whining like you have been horribly wronged, we don't give a shit. Each option comes with its own set of consequences. Your choice.

[supermodel159]

He shouldn't have said "despite...frequent testing" because odds are that frequent testing is what found most of the infections that would have gone unnoticed otherwise. HBS set up a process to quickly identify and mitigate Covid outbreaks and it seems like it's doing what it was intended to do.

For sure, the process is working. The vaccine on the other hand...

[The AD]

Great. Another one...

[frorider]

How about a subtle solution—the thrunters here get their posts converted to white font on white background. Avoids the quote issue.