To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[pureantigravity]

I'll leave this here for the scientists.

Antibody response induced by mRNA vaccination differs from natural SARS-CoV-2 infection
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...nfection.aspx?

"Antibodies from natural infection do not have high levels against the RBD. This could be because the RBD epitope may be hidden to prevent host immune recognition. The less robust and variable antibody response to natural infection suggests immunity acquired by natural infection may not be as strong as that from vaccination. “We should not assume that previously infected individuals are immune or that they cannot transmit the virus,” write the authors.

Thus, vaccination induces a more robust antibody response, and even people who have been previously infected may benefit from the vaccine."

[old goat]

Thanks. Not enough data in that report. It is interesting that 7% of the infected vaxxed get hospitalized, and 1.3% die - that's about the same as for the non-vaxxed infected. If those numbers are correct, vaccination reduces infection chances, but doesn't help much once infected (contrary to the standard message).

The CDC ought to be tracking and looking for cases in the vaxxed. How else are they to set policy for those vaxxed? Flying blind.... not a good plan.

To do this somewhat correctly requires more data than armchair calculating. Need a bunch of raw data to extract similar vaxxed and unvaxxed populations to compare. E.g. I imagine the vaxxed are skewed toward old age, risky jobs, and wealth. If we're not testing the vaxxed, that's going to skew results too. Maybe they are tested on hospitalization and use hospitalization as a proxy for infection?

That article says vax 80% effective at preventing infection. Though if we aren't testing the vaxxed, surely protection is less. Two other places I've seen numbers around 66%, but they were also articles removed from the sources/data. Ofc, the EUAs said 95%. (EUA subjects didn't know they were vaxxed, so would behave differently than one who knows)

Seems like anything that counters the "get vaxxed" narrative gets squelched. The narrative is great, but I also want some idea what my risks are when I leave my bubble.

Anybody seen anything better? Basically, if I travel 400 miles to hangout indoors with ten vaxxed people for 7 days, what's my chance of infection? For the unvaxxed, I can say:

community rate is 5/100k/day * 4x undercount * 5 days infectious period * 10 people =
1% chance one of us brought the 'rona

And indoors for long time we're all going to catch it if it's there. (although... now that part of the population is vaxxed and somewhat resistant, it's actually a little higher risk for the unvaxxed)

No one is squelching the narrative that vaccines are good. The CDC's website is very open and constantly updated about what is known about breakthrough cases.

Tracking and looking for cases among the vaxxed is exactly what the CDC is doing. You're going to have to be a little bit patient. The CDC has to rely on cases being reported. We can assume that most or nearly all symptomatic cases will be reported but the percent of asymptomatic cases that get tested and reported is very likely lower than in the unvaxxed--which would make the efficacy of the vaccines lower and the hospitalization and mortality rates lower as well. While we're waiting for better data you certainly have the option of continuing to quarantine yourself.

In addition to the CDC's tracking, the vaccine trials are continuing to follow their subjects, which will provide more data, although the placebo patients have been vaccinated so there won't be a comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Presumably the subjects will be periodically tested, which will give a better idea of the rate of asymptomatic infection.

The fact that the vaccines aren't 100% effective makes it all the more important that almost everyone gets vaccinated. Your chance of getting Covid is product of the vaccine's efficacy and your chance of being exposed--and the more people that are vaccinated the lower that number is.

Remember that 95% efficacy doesn't mean you have a 5% chance of ever getting covid. It means that you have 5% the chance of getting covid as an unvaccinated person over a period of a few months while presumably continued to mask and distance.

In the long run, getting vaccinated is not just about protecting oneself, it's about protecting the community--something that means less and less every day. If people thought the vaccine would perfectly prevent them from getting sick there would be a lot less pressure on the unvaccinated to get shots, which would make the CDC covering up breakthrough infections counterproductive. Imagine a woman who's had her shot trying to convince her husband to get a shot to protect her and the kids from breakthrough infections.

[Mofro261]

I'll leave this here for the scientists.



Thus, vaccination induces a more robust antibody response, and even people who have been previously infected may benefit from the vaccine."

Prefusion stabilized spike does not fall apart.

[XXX-er]

In the long run, getting vaccinated is not just about protecting oneself, it's about protecting the community--something that means less and less every day. .

I wondered how PR got 85% of the town vaxed but then 1 in 3 are FN so its tribe

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/corona...2021-1.6010949

in canada and the rest of the world ^^

"Coronavirus variants now make up the majority of Canada's new COVID-19 cases, the country's chief public health officer said on Sunday, adding that the variant first identified in the U.K. is especially prevalent.

"Variants of concern (VOCs) represent a majority of cases in Canada, with the B117 variant now reported in all provinces & territories and accounting for over 95 per cent of VOCs sequenced to date," Dr. Theresa Tam said on Twitter.

Tam reiterated that variants are more contagious and are associated with more severe outcomes, and some — like the P1 variant first identified in Brazil and the B1351 variant first identified in South Africa — are more resistant to vaccines.

The B117 has become the dominant strain in some provinces, with Manitoba saying last week it will stop notifying residents if they've contracted the variant as it now makes up the vast majority of cases."

[schuss]

Oof, Pfizer #2 knocked me out for the morning+. Wife just has a sore arm. Weird how different reactions are.

[glademaster]

Oof, Pfizer #2 knocked me out for the morning+. Wife just has a sore arm. Weird how different reactions are.

That dipshit from a couple pages ago should be along shortly to start squawking about how you must have had an undiagnosed case of COVID.

[bennymac]

[bennymac]

[TBS]

US national hesitancy map (March survey)
https://data.cdc.gov/stories/s/cnd2-a6zw

This map has an interesting anomoly
The two rectangular counties in NE AZ and the adjacent two counties in NW NM with 26-30% hesitancy make up most of the Navajo Nation. The counties are about 2/3 Indigenous

About 90% of Navajo had at least one job as of a month ago.

Which sort of implies that most of the white people in that region are "hesitant".

[LongShortLong]

No one is squelching the narrative that vaccines are good. The CDC's website is very open and constantly updated about what is known about breakthrough cases.

Tracking and looking for cases among the vaxxed is exactly what the CDC is doing. You're going to have to be a little bit patient. The CDC has to rely on cases being reported. We can assume that most or nearly all symptomatic cases will be reported but the percent of asymptomatic cases that get tested and reported is very likely lower than in the unvaxxed--which would make the efficacy of the vaccines lower and the hospitalization and mortality rates lower as well. While we're waiting for better data you certainly have the option of continuing to quarantine yourself.

Maybe "squelched" is the wrong word. The folks I read and watch are so hooked on the narrative of vaccines are good and get your shot, that they overlook or misinterpret data. E.g. one (who corrected in a later video) attributed the falling CFR to vaccination while displaying a graph that clearly showed the CFR decline occurred before December, before anyone had a shot.

Similarly, the CDC and everyone else (non-kooks) wasted no time trumpeting the EUA efficacy in December, which is great, but... In the five months since there's been no followup to see if those numbers are holding up among the trial participants or in the public.

In addition to the CDC's tracking, the vaccine trials are continuing to follow their subjects, which will provide more data, although the placebo patients have been vaccinated so there won't be a comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Presumably the subjects will be periodically tested, which will give a better idea of the rate of asymptomatic infection..

I hope so. Surely there should be an interim report by now. With 200 million shots in arms, there should be reports on vaccine efficacy vs infection and outcomes for the population as well. I see some foreign reports showing the infection protection is far less than 95% (I'm seeing 60-80% range).

The fact that the vaccines aren't 100% effective makes it all the more important that almost everyone gets vaccinated. Your chance of getting Covid is product of the vaccine's efficacy and your chance of being exposed--and the more people that are vaccinated the lower that number is.

Amen.

Remember that 95% efficacy doesn't mean you have a 5% chance of ever getting covid. It means that you have 5% the chance of getting covid as an unvaccinated person over a period of a few months while presumably continued to mask and distance.

Preach! There's an important difference between not knowing if you got the shot, and knowing you did.

[Buster Highmen]

Second Pfizer at 11:10 now hitting with w0bbly w00zies, no sore arm though.

[KQ]

Don't know if anyone else caught this but authorities have come out and said that those who had immediate issues with the J&J jab were a result of vaccination anxiety and had nothing to do with J&J.

Saw this same thing happen with a gal I was volunteering with (a self admitted hypochondriac). She was nervous before the Pfizer jab and afterwards pretty much convinced herself she was having visual distortions and felt lightheaded. She left before her shift was up.

[yeahman]

Which sort of implies that most of the white people in that region are "hesitant".

I really think vaccine "hesitancy" is a misnomer. With 100 million Americans vaxxed, anybody with a brain in their head knows the risks are incredibly low. Most of these people are just making a political statement, thinking they are getting their revenge against the libs for kicking Trump out of office. Libs want me to wear a mask? No. Libs want me to get a shot? No. This attitude isn't going to change much over time.

[nutmegchoi]

Got the second Pfizer today.
5 hours in, symptoms start showing up.
Will be back with the full report a day or two later.

[funkendrenchman]

Israel reported 13 cases on Saturday with a .1% positivity rate.

[MultiVerse]

So coronavirus vaccines aren’t perfect. They’re still very, very effective.

More than 1 million San Diegans have been fully vaccinated, putting the local breakthrough rate at about 0.02 percent. San Diego County has had 234 breakthrough cases, 55 percent of whom haven’t had any COVID-19 symptoms. None of these people have been hospitalized or died.

To date, that's 99.99% of people in San Diego County escaping symptomatic Covid after vaccination.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...very-effective

[bennymac]

San Diego-ites? San Diego-ons?

San Dieg-ans?

[bodywhomper]

Whale's vagina

Sent from my SPH-L710 using TGR Forums mobile app

[schuss]

So coronavirus vaccines aren’t perfect. They’re still very, very effective.

More than 1 million San Diegans have been fully vaccinated, putting the local breakthrough rate at about 0.02 percent. San Diego County has had 234 breakthrough cases, 55 percent of whom haven’t had any COVID-19 symptoms. None of these people have been hospitalized or died.

To date, that's 99.99% of people in San Diego County escaping symptomatic Covid after vaccination.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...very-effective

Yep, all vaccines get random failures in a large enough population. It's how I got measles, despite being vaccinated for it.
Sidenote: measles is absolutely terrible, would not recommend

[skuff]

Where is upstate NY on that map?

Had my 2nd Pfizer a week ago, shoulder wasn't sore but could feel it. About 5-6 hours after the shot it felt like someone slipped me a mild strength edible, somewhat "foggy" feeling. Played golf the next day, carried my golf bag for 18 holes and felt fine. 0 side effects from the 1st shot, no sore shoulder at all.

[concretejungle]

About to get Pfizer #2 in under an hour. My first shot left me with a sore shoulder for 24 hours but that was it.

[RoooR]

These has been some decent data on the effectiveness. Currently in the USA the number of fully vaccinated people that have been hospitalized with COVID is in the 100s. With like 90M fully vaccinated. If you drive somewhere to hang out with other fully vaccinated people, then the drive there and back is by far the most dangerous part of that event.

We may need to start paying people to get it. Or let insurance companies charge more for people that don't get it.

[stealurface831]

so employers have historically held the right to require vaccinations provided they accommodate for disabilities and religion. that said, do anti-vaxxers fall under the disabled category?

[Benny Profane]

Employers can pretty much do anything they want here, unless states start passing laws restricting their actions.

[RShea]

so employers have historically held the right to require vaccinations provided they accommodate for disabilities and religion. that said, do anti-vaxxers fall under the disabled category?

Some of it is very state specific. If the state is an at will employment state, they can fire for any reason they want. Montana is the one state that does not have At Will laws from what I've read. But of course they could also be sued if the employee feels that they were dismissed wrongly and it was for a discriminatory reason (such as age, religion, etc.)