To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[LegoSkier]

I have a question that's waaaaay waaaaay above my pay grade, but it's something I've wondered about for a bit.

When vaccine development first kicked off, I remember lots of discussion in the media, here, and other places, how relatively easy it is for the experts to design a vaccine, but the challenge comes in the vaccine being effective and safe (e.g the University of Queensland here designed a vaccine that was very promising, but had the unfortunate side effect of making people erroneously test positive for HIV). Now that we're a bit down the road from those days, and we have data and samples and evidence and all that good stuff, is it possible for second generation vaccine developers to look at COVID T (or B cells) of people who've gotten the virus and reverse engineer a more effective vaccine based on those T or B cells? Or is this an absolutely stupid question and there's a better way?

In my simple understanding of this incredibly complex subject, the OG strain of COVID was mapped and understood (with the benefit of years of science on coronaviruses), then the smart people got to work on the most obvious candidates (at the time) for an effective vaccine. So where do we go from here for vaccine design and improvement, other than variant-specific versions?

https://vaccibody.com/wp-content/upl...e-PR-FINAL.pdf

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05069623

[The AD]

Interesting guest column in the NY Times today about vaccination hesitancy and what methods might help get more people vaccinated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/21/o...d-omicron.html

I know this is probably behind a paywall, so here's the short synopsis: additional data and even personally experiencing the devastating effects of Covid probably isn't going to get many people to get vaccinated who haven't already. The only things that seem to work are incentives, either positive or negative. The classic negative incentive is a mandate, specifically employment mandates. Almost everyone will get vaccinated if they would lose their job otherwise.

I found this part interesting:

Public health experts have tried many different methods to motivate behavior like vaccination. Our recent research shows even more clearly that providing additional information may not be one of the strongest tools.

In a study published on Dec. 13, we examined data from about 750,000 children who were eligible to receive the human papilloma virus vaccine to prevent cervical cancer. Since the HPV vaccine was approved in 2006, it has experienced resistance from parents and religious and conservative groups who see it as promoting sexual behavior. Its politicization was a preview for what has happened with the coronavirus vaccines in the United States.

Our research question was: Are mothers who themselves had cervical cancer more likely to have their children vaccinated against HPV? We thought that for this group of mothers, a lack of information about the consequences of HPV couldn’t possibly affect their decision to vaccinate their children against the virus. These women had personally suffered from cervical cancer, so, presumably, they would be especially well informed about the harms of this virus and the disease it causes.

What we found surprised us: The girls and boys whose mothers had cervical cancer were no more likely to be vaccinated against HPV compared with children whose mothers had no history of cervical disease. Children whose mothers had a cancer “scare” — a biopsy of cervical cells that ended up not being cancerous — were only slightly more likely to be vaccinated. But having cervical cancer or a cervical cancer scare did not result in the large increase in vaccination rates that we were expecting.

A couple days ago I said you'd think the unvaccinated seeing others like them being seriously affected and even dying from Covid would start to chisel away at their obstinance, but this study certainly indicates that that's unlikely. Human beings often do not behave rationally.

[k2skier112]

MAGA!!!

[Gcooker]

I think Omicron is giving all the antivaxxers ammo to say "I told you so" since vaccines appears not to have any effect on the spread. With cases growing crazy fast in both groups it's only the health outcomes that can sway the ones that are dug in... or they just die.

[The AD]

With cases growing crazy fast in both groups it's only the health outcomes that can sway the ones that are dug in... or they just die.

Nope, they don't care about data. I think they are more likely to die than be swayed.

[old goat]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/lacled...ate?ref=scroll

Impressive dumbfuckery.

Interesting guest column in the NY Times today about vaccination hesitancy and what methods might help get more people vaccinated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/21/o...d-omicron.html

I know this is probably behind a paywall, so here's the short synopsis: additional data and even personally experiencing the devastating effects of Covid probably isn't going to get many people to get vaccinated who haven't already. The only things that seem to work are incentives, either positive or negative. The classic negative incentive is a mandate, specifically employment mandates. Almost everyone will get vaccinated if they would lose their job otherwise.

I found this part interesting:


A couple days ago I said you'd think the unvaccinated seeing others like them being seriously affected and even dying from Covid would start to chisel away at their obstinance, but this study certainly indicates that that's unlikely. Human beings often do not behave rationally.

And yet an NPR reporter yesterday was taking issue with the messaging from CDC and the White House--that what is needed is more patient explanation and education. They were urging a return to daily Covid briefings. Instead of twice weekly. As if anyone is paying attention to the twice weeklies. Maybe they could hire Andrew Cuomo to do the briefings--he was good at it and I hear he has some big legal bills he needs to pay.
TR was right--speak softly and carry a big stick.

Also on NPR--the poor concert pianist who can't get a second or third shot because the first one gave her tinnitus and she can't risk her music. (BTW--she got the tinnitus only after she was diagnosed with covid some weeks after the shot, but she's sure it was the vaccine that caused the tinnitus because a lot of other people have told her that. Why would NPR give air time to an idiot like that. Because they teach virology at Julliard?)

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
Also on NPR--the poor concert pianist who can't get a second or third shot because the first one gave her tinnitus and she can't risk her music. (BTW--she got the tinnitus only after she was diagnosed with covid some weeks after the shot, but she's sure it was the vaccine that caused the tinnitus because a lot of other people have told her that. Why would NPR give air time to an idiot like that. Because they teach virology at Julliard?)

Come on, man - you *know* that the vaccine GAVE her the COVID that caused her tinnitus.

Or something.

[Ted Striker]

Nope, they don't care about data. I think they are more likely to die than be swayed.

They don't believe in data.

[Percy Rideout]

It's like the White House is listening to me in the Padded Room!

https://gizmodo.com/white-house-to-m...sts-1848250711

"Psaki’s disdain for the idea of delivering free tests seemed to be real turning point for Americans who have come to the realization that Joe Biden fully owns the public health response to the pandemic now."

[Adolf Allerbush]

It's like the White House is listening to me in the Padded Room!

https://gizmodo.com/white-house-to-m...sts-1848250711

"Psaki’s disdain for the idea of delivering free tests seemed to be real turning point for Americans who have come to the realization that Joe Biden fully owns the public health response to the pandemic now."

There's a thread in polyass for just this type of discussion. Please move it there. Thanks,

[Percy Rideout]

There's a thread in polyass for just this type of discussion. Please move it there. Thanks,

This article linked is very much on topic, and deals with at home testing in the USA which was balked at when brought up 2 weeks ago. There was a behind the scenes "about face" after public backlash.

Not reading the article but still commenting is....a bold strategy Cotton.

[wooley12]

Let me clarify it for you sonny as you are pretty slow on the uptake. Fuck off.

[skiJ]

Interesting guest column in the NY Times today about vaccination hesitancy and what methods might help get more people vaccinated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/21/o...d-omicron.html

I know this is probably behind a paywall, so here's the short synopsis: additional data and even personally experiencing the devastating effects of Covid probably isn't going to get many people to get vaccinated who haven't already. The only things that seem to work are incentives, either positive or negative. The classic negative incentive is a mandate, specifically employment mandates. Almost everyone will get vaccinated if they would lose their job otherwise.

I found this part interesting:


A couple days ago I said you'd think the unvaccinated seeing others like them being seriously affected and even dying from Covid would start to chisel away at their obstinance, but this study certainly indicates that that's unlikely. Human beings often do not behave rationally.

There was a time when I though incentives could encourage people to be vaccinated ;
unfortunately, as has been noted in the pages of this thread, there are still those that will seek to misrepresent - so...

I will pose it as a question -
what about limiting access to medical care for unvaccinated ?

I'm sure treating covid generates revenue. and
how much damage to medical care delivery are we willing to endure for/by treating "severe covid" in unvaccinated...

for example,
the person earlier this month who was refused an ambulance because 'difficulty breathing' was an inadequate medical complaint for emergency response.
my understanding was the person died
( perhaps of a heart attack )...

I have heard reports where something like limiting access to medical care is becoming Policy - PCPs no longer willing to schedule unvaccinated
( they will assist their unvaccinated patients in finding other health care provides ) ;

... referral centers declining further referrals. ...

it does seem inconsistent to me that those who refuse a potentially life-saving vaccination believe medical care Must be provided
( why doesn't medical care Start with protective vaccination (?) )


it is my understanding current law requires Hospital Emergency Rooms to attempt (to provide) Emergency Care -
I saw an article recently that there are Emergency Rooms that are being Closed in areas of low population Because of difficulty complying with the Requirements ( by law ) for "Emergency (departments)"

there is an excellent post up-thread of the risk to medical care due to the loss of experienced patient care staff (Summit) ;

there are also thoughtful comments up-thread about the potential for future variants to cause greater pathology...

yes, there are going to be Breakthough cases - and I could see a day coming where vaccination would be necessary to receive medical care.


Please
Be vaccinated -
please get a booster when eligible...

Thank you. tj

[Conundrum]

Politics aside, home tests would help. There was an exposure at work last Wed. I'm tripled vaxed so I get to carry on as normal unless I show symptoms. I became congested and sneezy mid-day at work yesterday so came home. Took an at home test I had on hand which was negative ($12 test, affordable to me when available but not to everyone). Weird, normal sniffles still happen. I don't have to report another exposure and send people home to quarantine nor do the folks I came into contact with have to worry about their holiday plans being ruined. There's such a push for vaccines but I don't understand the hesitancy related to testing. Vax/antivax, mask or anti-mask, I think a majority of people would stay home and not go in public if they knew they were positive. Not all, but at least some.

Think of my situation differently...I don't have an at home test, I assume I'm negative because I got a booster three weeks ago but am actually positive, and just roll around town like nothing is going on. Sure, I'd wear a mask but might go out to eat or a grab a beer and expose more folks.

Providing free and accessible testing is not the worst idea out there.

[altasnob]

It's like the White House is listening to me in the Padded Room!

Pretty much every media source I read (nearly all left of center) had the same reaction to Psaki's COVID test comment that Asspen had. So on this issue, he is in the mainstream with his take.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
Providing free and accessible testing is not the worst idea out there.

Agreed. And I'm not sure what other states provide it, but ours does. Both free at-home (not sure - this might be a county thing) as well as free state health department testing.

[altasnob]

Trevor Bedford's latest tweet is pushing for a Omicron/Delta specific vaccine that can be deployed to the masses by next Fall. Booster is what we have available today and is better than nothing but he fully expects either Delta, or Omicron, or both, sticking around and causing havoc next cold/flu season as well.

[Conundrum]

Agreed. And I'm not sure what other states provide it, but ours does. Both free at-home (not sure - this might be a county thing) as well as free state health department testing.

PCR tests are no cost here but sometimes a long line and few day wait for results. If a person doesn’t have a car or time off, my guess is some will choose to work. And many employers are not giving time while waiting for results. While less effective, rapids at home or at the employer would probably keep a lot of positives out of circulation.

Finding rapids here is tough. When they do show up, they are $10-12 apiece and so limited, it’s tough to have any on hand.

I guess this is a vax thread so enough about testing from me. Thought the conversation was interesting after getting a cold for the first time in almost two years.

[dunfree]

Pretty much every media source I read (nearly all left of center) had the same reaction to Psaki's COVID test comment that Asspen had. So on this issue, he is in the mainstream with his take.

the media is bullshitting again? Shocking. Where the fuck those cunts been for two years?

[Conundrum]

the media is bullshitting again? Shocking. Where the fuck those cunts been for two years?

When I woke up this morning, my wish was to hear someone use cunt in a sentence today. I was hoping in person but due to staying home with the sniffles, thank you.

[goldenboy]

PCR tests are no cost here but sometimes a long line and few day wait for results. If a person doesn’t have a car or time off, my guess is some will choose to work. And many employers are not giving time while waiting for results. While less effective, rapids at home or at the employer would probably keep a lot of positives out of circulation.

Finding rapids here is tough. When they do show up, they are $10-12 apiece and so limited, it’s tough to have any on hand.

I guess this is a vax thread so enough about testing from me. Thought the conversation was interesting after getting a cold for the first time in almost two years.

It's related for sure.

I got 4 test kits sent to me from my insurance (BC/BS of CO), and another 4 sent from the state of CO. All free. Drive through testing is also free although it takes 2-3 days to get results. I'm going to do one of the test kits before I head home to family for Christmas, even though everyone in my family is boosted and I feel fine.

[Garbowski]

For inflammatory vaccine side effects like myocarditis and pericarditis, would these same people likely have had the same reaction to an actual infection?

[skiskiskiskiski]

Trevor Bedford's latest tweet is pushing for a Omicron/Delta specific vaccine that can be deployed to the masses by next Fall. Booster is what we have available today and is better than nothing but he fully expects either Delta, or Omicron, or both, sticking around and causing havoc next cold/flu season as well.

Would it be possible to anticipate how the virus might mutate and have some potential vaccine candidates ready to try?

It just seems like it takes too long to make specific vaccines if we are going to wait til next fall for delta and omicron. By then there will likely be two or more new versions causing havoc.

Or are they thinking because omicron is so much more infectious it will continue to dominate?

[bennymac]

For inflammatory vaccine side effects like myocarditis and pericarditis, would these same people likely have had the same reaction to an actual infection?

The last stat I read on that said that in the 12 to 17yo age group they’ve seen
77 cases per million due to vaccination
450 cases per million due to infection

I know that doesn’t answer your question - I’m not sure if we can know if those who got myocarditis from vaccination would have definitely got myocarditis had they been infected

But there are smart people here so maybe they have those kinda answers

[bagtagley]

Just read that UVA is requiring boosters for all students, faculty, AND staff, no testing option. Wonder how much of that we’ll start to see elsewhere.