To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Jacques Strap]

No

Right on, thanks for pointing that out Mofro. I hadn't thought far enough to consider the timeline of Phase I trials. The most frequent systemic side effects after the first dose in the Moderna and Pfizer trials were fatigue (38-48%),headache (35-42%), myalgia (~21-24%), and arthralgia (11-17%), and we didn't get to an estimated nationwide infection rate of >15% until late November. Even allowing for recruitment targeted in areas of high transmission, that fact alone blows a real big mortal wound through this half-baked idea.

And I'll admit, I haven't taken the time to figure out how to navigate VAERS. A lot of data there. Tangential question: do we have an idea of how representative it is? I think it's possible that men (especially us manginas) are less likely to report symptoms in general, but I don't have any evidence to back that up and that's verging on some psychology and sociology that I actively don't give a shit about.

Surprisingly, the clinical trials found only age to be a meaningful demographic determinant of side effect occurrence, and both state that the safety profile was similar across, age, genders, ethnicity, medical comorbidities. But I really fucking wish I'd read earlier what I saw on this 3rd or 4th reread of the FDA briefs: safety profile was similar regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection. Oops. That would've saved us all a bunch of time and frustration.

I do remember being surprised looking at the FDA reports that I didn't recognize any classic adjuvants in the ingredients list. When you posted about adjuvants, I dug around a little more, looked at the Pfizer and Moderna ingredient lists, made the mistake of trusting (and probably misunderstanding) quotes from a couple experts, and concluded that the vaccines didn't contain any (added) adjuvants and that the inherent immunogenicity of the vaccine components were enough. Considering the immunogenic capacity of RNA and glycolipids, this makes perfect sense. But, as you said, whether a vaccine contains a typical adjuvant or acts as a self-adjuvant is altogether immaterial physiologically; something in the vaccine must trigger the innate immune system and T cell activation or else the vaccine doesn't work. That was a sloppy oversight on my part. Which brings us to the part of your post that made me say out loud "Oh... shit."

I flat out forgot about the higher expression of innate immune system genes in XX. There's absolutely no excuse for that. I'm more than a little embarrassed. I believe the customary punishment is to take a lap or two.

[The SnowShow]

3 days out from 2nd shot...still feel more tired than normal. Is it possible it’s still from the vaccine or something else?

[John_B]

3 days out from 2nd shot...still feel more tired than normal. Is it possible it’s still from the vaccine or something else?

I never felt super sick but was off for 4 or 5 days afterwards. Pfizer fwiw.

[Ted Striker]

A friend gives shots at the local mass-vax site. It only operates evenings and weekends, yet there are open spots everyday.

And I was just informed they're only doing a half day tomorrow.

"Why? Lack of interest?"
"Yep"

[TBS]

From the NYT on why people in white folks rural areas aren't getting vaccinated
Dateline Greene County TN
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/h...epublican.html

Excerpts

But a week here in Greene County reveals a more nuanced, layered hesitancy than surveys suggest. People say that politics isn’t the leading driver of their vaccine attitudes. The most common reason for their apprehension is fear — that the vaccine was developed in haste, that long-term side effects are unknown. Their decisions are also entangled in a web of views about bodily autonomy, science and authority, plus a powerful regional, somewhat romanticized self-image: We don’t like outsiders messing in our business.

Covid smacked the region hard this winter. Eleven people in Jim and Rita Fletcher’s extended circle died from it.

But no, the Fletchers, lifelong Greenevillians, will not get the vaccine.

What’s the point, they ask? The government still wants you to wear a mask indoors. “I just don’t see any benefits,” said Mrs. Fletcher, as the couple waited to see their family doctor.

The Fletchers, Free Will Baptists, worry the vaccine includes aborted fetal parts (it doesn’t). They don’t trust the government, convinced it has long manipulated Covid case numbers.

People don’t put much stock in pronouncements by politicians, but they do trust Walt Cross, the proprietor of the Mustard Seed, a shop in Newport just over the county line, that takes its name from the Gospel of Matthew and carries herbs, nutritional supplements and local produce.

Eva Field's (a nurse practitioner) gut tells her to believe a video someone sent her from a far-right misinformation group, in which a ranter said studies showed that vaccines caused plaque in the brain.

Like others here, she is suspicious of Bill Gates’s involvement in vaccine development. One evening at supper, Dr. Theo Hensley, a vaccine proponent in her office, retorted: “I don’t know Bill Gates but I do know that Dolly Parton gave a million bucks.”

“Well, she’s probably OK,” Miss Fields allowed.

“How can we be sure there are no chips in the vaccine, like the things you put in your dog?” Mr. Fletcher asked.

“We can’t make microchips that small,” Dr. Lewis countered.

“Well, it’s like a grain of rice,” said Mr. Fletcher.

“I couldn’t inject a grain of rice with a needle,” Dr. Lewis said.

Dr. Lewis held up his smartphone. If you’re worried about being tracked, he said, all the technology is right here, in the very thing you pick up every day. Every hour.

Our country is doomed

[Ted Striker]

^^^ Covid 19: "y'all have some pretty mouths"

[Benny Profane]

From the NYT on why people in white folks rural areas aren't getting vaccinated
Dateline Greene County TN
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/h...epublican.html

Excerpts






Our country is doomed

Well, hopefully, their country.

[The SnowShow]

I never felt super sick but was off for 4 or 5 days afterwards. Pfizer fwiw.

Moderna for me. Was pretty damn sick for 1 day and yeah, just feel off since. Probably will improve tomorrow.

[old goat]

Maybe, just maybe, it was a mistake for the scientists and Trump and the news media to tout how fast the vaccine was developed. In hindsight.
There's an adage in medicine. Don't be the first to embrace the new. Or the last. No reason it can't apply to the public as well.

[bennymac]

Eleven people in Jim and Rita Fletcher’s extended circle died from it.

But no, the Fletchers will not get the vaccine.

What’s the point, they ask?

“I just don’t see any benefits,” said Mrs. Fletcher

JFC we. Are. Doomed.

[XXX-er]

Maybe, just maybe, it was a mistake for the scientists and Trump and the news media to tout how fast the vaccine was developed. In hindsight.
There's an adage in medicine. Don't be the first to embrace the new. Or the last. No reason it can't apply to the public as well.

On the CBC science show " Quirks and Quarks " they interviewd a Canadian covid reasearcher who said all that research was already done ( possible on SARs ? )so they were able to down load 5 yrs of data and create a profile or model or sft of covid in < an hr

i agree there was a poor spin on the covid vacine

[KQ]

How did I miss this? Joints for jabs!

Want a joint, get a jab; groups offer incentives to boost COVID vaccinations


Adults showed their COVID-19 vaccination cards to receive a free joint at New York's "Joints for Jabs" event

[huckbucket]

Right on, thanks for pointing that out Mofro. I hadn't thought far enough to consider the timeline of Phase I trials. The most frequent systemic side effects after the first dose in the Moderna and Pfizer trials were fatigue (38-48%),headache (35-42%), myalgia (~21-24%), and arthralgia (11-17%), and we didn't get to an estimated nationwide infection rate of >15% until late November. Even allowing for recruitment targeted in areas of high transmission, that fact alone blows a real big mortal wound through this half-baked idea.

And I'll admit, I haven't taken the time to figure out how to navigate VAERS. A lot of data there. Tangential question: do we have an idea of how representative it is? I think it's possible that men (especially us manginas) are less likely to report symptoms in general, but I don't have any evidence to back that up and that's verging on some psychology and sociology that I actively don't give a shit about.

Surprisingly, the clinical trials found only age to be a meaningful demographic determinant of side effect occurrence, and both state that the safety profile was similar across, age, genders, ethnicity, medical comorbidities. But I really fucking wish I'd read earlier what I saw on this 3rd or 4th reread of the FDA briefs: safety profile was similar regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection. Oops. That would've saved us all a bunch of time and frustration.

I do remember being surprised looking at the FDA reports that I didn't recognize any classic adjuvants in the ingredients list. When you posted about adjuvants, I dug around a little more, looked at the Pfizer and Moderna ingredient lists, made the mistake of trusting (and probably misunderstanding) quotes from a couple experts, and concluded that the vaccines didn't contain any (added) adjuvants and that the inherent immunogenicity of the vaccine components were enough. Considering the immunogenic capacity of RNA and glycolipids, this makes perfect sense. But, as you said, whether a vaccine contains a typical adjuvant or acts as a self-adjuvant is altogether immaterial physiologically; something in the vaccine must trigger the innate immune system and T cell activation or else the vaccine doesn't work. That was a sloppy oversight on my part. Which brings us to the part of your post that made me say out loud "Oh... shit."

I flat out forgot about the higher expression of innate immune system genes in XX. There's absolutely no excuse for that. I'm more than a little embarrassed. I believe the customary punishment is to take a lap or two.

Ever heard of the saying "less is more?" You need to take a deep breath.

Couple of quick corrections to your post. Both Pfizer and Moderna harbor single-stranded RNA which means they will not be immunogenic in the way that double-stranded RNA (from pathogens) is sensed by the innate immune system. Innate immunity with these vaccines is hypothesized to occur because the RNA is wrapped in lipid nanoparticles (not glycolipid) which can act as adjuvant.

I have no idea what you mean by " ... higher expression of innate immune system genes in XX."

[GoldMember]

How did I miss this? Joints for jabs!

Want a joint, get a jab; groups offer incentives to boost COVID vaccinations


Adults showed their COVID-19 vaccination cards to receive a free joint at New York's "Joints for Jabs" event

Hey, whatever it takes..gift cards, cannabis, whatever attracts and incentivizes people to do this as quickly as possible, all for it.

[buttahflake]

Dabs for Jabs. Works for me

[glademaster]

I'll take the joint: less paraphernalia to lug around.

[Benny Profane]

As soon as they handed me my card, I saw this problem. I thought it was temporary, and I'd receive something more secure after the second shot, but, nope. I was told, though, that CDC does maintain a database that can be checked against the card.

https://thehill.com/changing-america...ging-people-to

[glademaster]

I would be surprised if that database is accurate, given that I only needed to provide my first and last name to sign up for my shot. No address, no b-day, no SSN. I could have registered for my vaccinations as Raoul Duke and nobody would have batted an eye.

[2bjenny]

i had a co-worker ask me if I had gotten vaccinated and did I have any reaction. Then she proceeded to tell me that she's not going to get vaccinated yet because she keeps reading conflicting stories from medical professionals and that the Illuminati is still controlling the world, but it's not called the Illuminati anymore (not Q), but she can't remember what they are called now, and that they are controlling everything,

<heavy sigh>

[Ted Striker]

Eleven people in Jim and Rita Fletcher’s extended circle died from it.

But no, the Fletchers will not get the vaccine.

What’s the point, they ask?

“I just don’t see any benefits,” said Mrs. Fletcher

JFC we. Are. Doomed.

Religious fanaticism = total fatalism

Literally everything can be "god's will".

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I love Advil, but have been very careful with quantities after talking to more than one instructor and patroller about the dangers of kidney damage if addicted.

Ski instructor and ski patroller? Seems legit. Ibuprofen is not addictive and as long as you use the otc dosing you won’t have a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Ted Striker]

...that the Illuminati is still controlling the world, but it's not called the Illuminati anymore (not Q), but she can't remember what they are called now, and that they are controlling everything,

I like fucking with people who are this dumb

Skeletor?
hmmm... I don't think so
I'm pretty sure it's Skeletor

[old_newguy]

As soon as they handed me my card, I saw this problem. I thought it was temporary, and I'd receive something more secure after the second shot, but, nope. I was told, though, that CDC does maintain a database that can be checked against the card.

https://thehill.com/changing-america...ging-people-to

Ironically the people advocating forging vaccine cards so they can go on a cruise are the same people who get foam at the mouth angry about people forging documents so they can work backbreaking jobs and feed their kids.

[old_newguy]

I would be surprised if that database is accurate, given that I only needed to provide my first and last name to sign up for my shot. No address, no b-day, no SSN. I could have registered for my vaccinations as Raoul Duke and nobody would have batted an eye.

Same to sign up, but pretty detailed collection of insurance card and ID by the various military branches (Army and Coast Guard) staffing the intake portion of the site when I actually went to get the shot.

[Ted Striker]

^^^ are you a vet? I have a few friends & acquaintances that were vaccinated through the VA, and they took a lot of info, but my local public mass-vax site won't turn anyone away for not providing ID (we have a fair number of undocumented workers)