To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[mtuhockey33]

https://www.ktvb.com/mobile/article/...7-62ae2548cc2d

All of Idaho just entered crisis standards of care. There are not enough beds and providers to treat everyone. The head of the governors task force on covid who is a doctor and is a retired CEO of are largest hospital system says the only way out of this is for more people to get vaccinations. We are one of the lowest vaxxed states.

A coworker and friend (conservative unvaxxed) has a sister here with a lung condition that is not covid related. She waited two weeks for an ICU bed, that became available in SLC so she was flown there. Her husband is unvaxxed and is scrambling to find a JJ because he has to wait 14 days post vac to enter the hospital to watch his wife probably die. My buddy who has been against vaxxes, scheduled his. He told me after watching his sister wait for two weeks for a bed he couldn’t be part of the problem anymore.

good riddance - another anti-vaxxer gone - 99% of TGR posters

[Ted Striker]

My friend in Lynden says the elementary school gives the kids "mask breaks" indoors and not socially distanced.

Not even remotely surprised. They've been driving the current wave.

[Buster Highmen]

good riddance - another anti-vaxxer gone - 99% of TGR posters

Isn't that kind of making up stuff?
The only way to limit the hostility is to start with ourselves.

[mtuhockey33]

Isn't that kind of making up stuff?
The only way to limit the hostility is to start with ourselves.

it would be if it wasn’t true… literally everyone on here bashes the anti-vaxxers and I could go back and find quotes where several members say good riddance to the anti-vaxxers.

I realize you’re not one of the major ball busters on here but it’s an ironic quote coming from the vaccinated side lol

[Conundrum]

good riddance - another anti-vaxxer gone - 99% of TGR posters

Man you're an asshole. This is my friend I mentioned up thread that I disagree with but we're still friends. This family wasn't on facebook or anywhere else spreading propaganda on vaccines or covid. And if you could fucking read, she has a disorder that requires ICU treatment but is not related to Covid. She doesn't have Covid, she just can't get into a hospital because they are clogged with the unvaccinated. And PS dipshit, the wonderful woman who may die due to lack of available care is vaccinated. Her husband and brother were not.

[rod9301]

In lots of other countries the Delta wave wasn't actually that big and it was very short.

Only one country in the world has seen 1-in-500 deaths and is currently averaging 2,000 Covid deaths a day.

Of you look at uk, there was a wave of Delta, went down, and immediately another wave started.

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[MultiVerse]

it would be if it wasn’t true… literally everyone on here bashes the anti-vaxxers and I could go back and find quotes where several members say good riddance to the anti-vaxxers.

In the meantime, you've consistently shrugged off any concerns even when you thought the pandemic 'only' affected 5% of population. You also said things like "hey bud… the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 killed 50,000,000 million worldwide…"

Or in response to protecting the elderly or at risk population you said, "Everyone dies; that’s life. I don’t know if anyone told you but nobody makes it out alive." You've also said the only people impacted by your decision "is myself and the other un-vaccinated or the people who are immuno-compromised and are fucked as it is."

[jono]

The lie was bad, no disagreement. But keep in mind it was amplified and misrepresented in a targeted political attack to make Fauci a scapegoat.

If you go back and look at who said what at the time, it started with Trump not the science because he didn't like masks, then the Vice President, and other cabinet members. But because of the political messaging, messaging that still gets repeated to this day, people forget what was actually said and they forget the mask guidance changed in just a couple of weeks.

I see two possibilities here: if it was purely a lie, Woodward's Trump recordings seem to indicate that the lie was traveling behind the scenes, too. Completely independent of blame, if Trump was saying "all you have to do is breathe the air" then whoever told him that should have known the importance of masks. They should have explained it to him, too, but he was probably fed the same "white lie" as everyone else--that would have been logical, because who would trust him to reliably help spread a lie? Even if you convince him to try, it's safer just to leave out the part about how to avoid breathing "the air." Backfired--kind of predictably.

On the other hand there was also legitimate ignorance at the CDC and all the other places where team aerosol had to fight to be heard (for months, following decades of entrenched doctrine), and it's quite possible that many of them really didn't think masks would help outside of flying spittle range. Those who didn't understand how aerosols work shouldn't be expected to know how well masks would work, or which ones would help or in what way they should be used. If we can't all get an N95 the solution is nuanced and required more knowledge than they had. Faced with a shortage, they threw up their hands because they didn't know any better. That's a horrifying failure born of mistrust both of the public and of those outside their own specialty. The fact that they didn't trust Americans in that moment forms the instinctive basis many people now have for not trusting "them."

[Buster Highmen]

it would be if it wasn’t true… literally everyone on here bashes the anti-vaxxers and I could go back and find quotes where several members say good riddance to the anti-vaxxers.

I realize you’re not one of the major ball busters on here but it’s an ironic quote coming from the vaccinated side lol

It's not true, nowhere near true. "Several" is not 99%.
And that sort of utterance only makes the dynamic worse and accentuates the ridiculous hyperbole.

If that's your objective, fine. You should be shut out.
If it's not your objective, man it up, recant it.

Being antivax (which means not getting the vaccine ) is childish. But that's a far cry from wishing all antivaxers dead.

[rod9301]

Color me unsurprised that skidog is unaware of the data confirming that there are scenarios in which your ‘personal’ choice to not wear a seatbelt endangers others. He keeps repeating that he’s vaxxed, and I assume we’ve all believed him, but it’s irrelevant to the criticism of his bullshit posts. If you have POC friends that doesn’t mean your racist statements aren’t racist. We have political trolls here who keep on saying ‘I didn’t vote for Trump’ as if that magically means their bullshit regurgitated talking points are more credible.

Denmark has over 90% of all (not just eligible) people over 50 fully covaxxed and seems on its way toward normalcy.

The tension between personal freedom and community objectives (from clean sidewalks to restaurant worker hand washing to XXX) is often talked about, but at a personal level the trade off is really temporal. Adults consciously make small sacrifices that may take 5 mins of our time or expose us to a 1:1 Million risk of an adverse effect to achieve a longer term benefit for ourselves. This delayed gratification is something toddlers struggle with but these days many adults struggle with it as well.

During the social upheavals of the 60s and 70s the conservatives were arguing that the liberals were focused on instant gratification and limitless personal choice. These days it seems reversed, with the Left saying ‘Do the Right Thing’ and take action against climate change, etc.

Denmark is 74 percent fully vaccinated and the rate of first dose is slowing way down.
Percent of total population.

As soon as under 12 get vaccinated, this week probably get much higher

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[MultiVerse]

Of you look at uk, there was a wave of Delta, went down, and immediately another wave started.

In the UK cases started to come down and then went back up after they opened everything up. Because they have such good data we know cases went up with school openings and packed football stadiums.

The key thing however, even though the UK Delta wave was massive, the deaths associated with the Delta wave were much much lower. The UK saw very few deaths compared with the Alpha wave—it's night and day.

Denmark is 74 percent fully vaccinated and the rate of first dose is slowing way down.
Percent of total population.

As soon as under 12 get vaccinated, this week probably get much higher

It's not just the population percentage that matters, it's also who's getting vaccinated. In contrast with a lot of other countries like Denmark, the United States has a much higher percentage of older folks refusing vaccines.

[mcski]

it would be if it wasn’t true… literally everyone on here bashes the anti-vaxxers and I could go back and find quotes where several members say good riddance to the anti-vaxxers.

I realize you’re not one of the major ball busters on here but it’s an ironic quote coming from the vaccinated side lol

Several is now 99%? No wonder you have so much trouble with pandemic math

[dunfree]

The fact that they didn't trust Americans in that moment forms the instinctive basis many people now have for not trusting "them."

nah, the mistrust of “them” preceded this and is an attitude untied to actual fact or data. It’s the Same people who didn’t believe cigarettes cause cancer, or that seatbelt laws work.

[rod9301]

Florida and Texas have deaths per day higher or almost higher than any of the previous peaks.



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[Buster Highmen]

May I interrupt the bickering so deftly seasoned with reason and data to bring your this special thread:
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-K00ks-to-Yurp .

Give it a thought, maybe even do something positive.

[jono]

nah, the mistrust of “them” preceded this and is an attitude untied to actual fact or data. It’s the Same people who didn’t believe cigarettes cause cancer, or that seatbelt laws work.

There's a spectrum of mistrust. Those you describe are on the extreme end of it and they're not convincing anyone. The ones beating the FUD drums are using anything they can get--see Austin.

[dunfree]

There's a spectrum of mistrust. Those you describe are on the extreme end of it and they're not convincing anyone. The ones beating the FUD drums are using anything they can get--see Austin.

the montucky/assholepen/derpbased are doing it because of political tribal loyalty.

[mtuhockey33]

It's not true, nowhere near true. "Several" is not 99%.
And that sort of utterance only makes the dynamic worse and accentuates the ridiculous hyperbole.

If that's your objective, fine. You should be shut out.
If it's not your objective, man it up, recant it.

Being antivax (which means not getting the vaccine ) is childish. But that's a far cry from wishing all antivaxers dead.

Youre right. Several members, if not most I come across, are strongly in the, “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there?

im not anti-vax. I never have been. I had Covid, got basic flu-like symptoms and have anti-bodies. I don’t see a need for a vaccine when my anti-bodies are still there and working just as well as someone who got a shot. That’s been my stance from the beginning and Im constantly put into the “misinformation/trumpet/anti-Vaxxer” status as deemed by the “borg”

But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.

[MultiVerse]

I see two possibilities here: if it was purely a lie, Woodward's Trump recordings seem to indicate that the lie was traveling behind the scenes, too. Completely independent of blame, if Trump was saying "all you have to do is breathe the air" then whoever told him that should have known the importance of masks. They should have explained it to him, too, but he was probably fed the same "white lie" as everyone else--that would have been logical, because who would trust him to reliably help spread a lie? Even if you convince him to try, it's safer just to leave out the part about how to avoid breathing "the air." Backfired--kind of predictably.

On the other hand there was also legitimate ignorance at the CDC and all the other places where team aerosol had to fight to be heard (for months, following decades of entrenched doctrine), and it's quite possible that many of them really didn't think masks would help outside of flying spittle range. Those who didn't understand how aerosols work shouldn't be expected to know how well masks would work, or which ones would help or in what way they should be used. If we can't all get an N95 the solution is nuanced and required more knowledge than they had. Faced with a shortage, they threw up their hands because they didn't know any better. That's a horrifying failure born of mistrust both of the public and of those outside their own specialty. The fact that they didn't trust Americans in that moment forms the instinctive basis many people now have for not trusting "them."

Both scenarios were a factor. There was constant ongoing infighting between the camps wanting to fight the pandemic politically vs scientifically.

And I don't think there's any question our regulatory state failed us in so many ways. But what doesn't get enough attention is how much of that is driven by our culture. We know resilience and flexibility works. The fact that people are saying they don't trust vaccines because the government was wrong about masks back in March 2000 says a lot about who we are.

[jono]

the montucky/assholepen/derpbased are doing it because of political tribal loyalty.

Oversimplifying. People do things for multiple reasons and taking away one or two doesn't change all of their minds but it changes some.

[MontuckyFried]

It’s funny how people remember the last 18 months in regards to Covid. I didn’t think that the message was unclear, maybe a bit inconsistent at times. The no mask in the beginning was always about conserving the limited amount of masks for healthcare workers.

Then perhaps they should have just said that instead of literally telling us that masks were unnecessary. Not a good look when they admit to having lied to us, no matter the motives.

Look throughout US history about the many, many lies the government has made. From the Tuskegee Syphilis Study to WMDs in Iraq. And then when they literally TELL us they "had" to lie to save PPE, you guys wonder how the public trust has been eroded over time? I'm NOT saying they're wrong on vaccinations et al, but with people being more aware of the government's past shenanigans than ever before, you can't blame people for having reservations. That's all.

[MultiVerse]

But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.

You are misrepresenting what's happening and you are misinterpreting the situation. People are frustrated with the unvaxxed because they are prolonging the pandemic. To you, a person who keeps denying that fact, it comes across as "good riddance" but what's really happening is people are fed up with all the anti-vax nonsense. A minority are expressing it in ways they don't really mean. Nobody wants to see hospitals filled to capacity with dying Covid patients.

[SumJongGuy]

Youre right. Several members, if not most I come across, are strongly in the, “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there?

im not anti-vax. I never have been. I had Covid, got basic flu-like symptoms and have anti-bodies. I don’t see a need for a vaccine when my anti-bodies are still there and working just as well as someone who got a shot. That’s been my stance from the beginning and Im constantly put into the “misinformation/trumpet/anti-Vaxxer” status as deemed by the “borg”

But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.

Do you say or think "good riddance" when a dangerous felon gets killed or badly injured while trying to commit a violent crime that puts others at risk? It's the same thing. Thugs being thugs.. Unmasked antivaxxers are putting the entire community at risk, children and high risk adults where vaccine isn't available or as effective are at risk of severe illness or death simply because someone around them decided their freedumb was more important than public health and safety.

And then when they do end up in the hospital thanks to their own stupidity or indifference they take valuable ICU space and EMS resources that might not be available when another citizen who did take all the precautions available to them needs them.. accident victims, severe allergy, heat attack etc.. who probably survive die when those resources are taken up by stupidity. Yes, good riddance..

[Conundrum]

“if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there? .

Your post came up today in response to me saying someone I know who is vaxx'd can't get a bed because the ICUs are full and turned that into what you wrote above. I did mention her family is unvaxx'd and changing their minds. I take back what I said. You're not only an asshole, you have a problem with details too.

[jono]

The fact that people are saying they don't trust vaccines because the government was wrong about masks back in March 2000 says a lot about who we are.

Definitely. Locally I see a reservoir of covidiots whose real issue started when they staked their claim on the plandemic hill back when masks were the issue and now they're going to die on it. The issue is simple psychology: they're entrenched now and they're not letting go. Ironically, the vast majority of them are alleged Christians who couldn't be bothered to check in with their religious beliefs (how's Leviticus for a test/mask/isolate mandate?) because that would have meant breaking with their political hero. So the cognitive dissonance must just be deafening.