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  1. #12776
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    Setting ID's governor aside, this. Every word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Mega View Post
    ...we have people that are being purposely adversarial to bettering our situation - virtually at all costs....until it's too late. Further, the standard is to use disinformation to undermine any effective means.... this includes:

    COVID denial
    COVID downplay
    COVID as a ruse for "new world order"
    Mask downplay
    Baseless mask 'risks'
    Distancing downplay
    badfaith zero-sum game position pitting COVID/measures vs. Liberty, Economics, your health
    Vaccines don't work
    Vaccines are worse than the disease
    Vaccines as a nefarious mechanism for trans human / tracking / dna modifier - outlandish conspiracy
    Vaccinated vs. unvaxed as equal risks/transmission/outcome
    Conspiracy that leads to some other remedy being denied to us
    Natural immunity as a viable "out" of the situation
    Political boogey-manship - some authority is out to get you
    Players who know the dangers, risks and best course of action but lean into the denier narrative for tribal wins
    Hypocrites who take protective measures themselves but preach non-compliance for political gamesmanship: foreign actors, financial opportunists, political hacks

    I've mentioned before - actual policy discussion is a good thing. Bad-faith posturing, backed by disinformation obfuscation is the opposing narrative norm. I'd love to see it some other way but the benevolent, principled libertarian strawman you present simply isn't representative enough to even enter the conversation - it's used as another ploy... an additional 'what if....." to give legitimacy to those who deserve none.
    At this point, vaccination is just another front in the culture war. I could drive around and tell you people's vax status from their bumper stickers, lawn signs, and tee shirts. Reasoned consideration is over - that is, if it ever existed. American exceptionalism alright...

  2. #12777
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Obviously universal agreement on mandates is not a goal. Universal agreement on vaccines would be easier to achieve and result in faster vaccination. Both are impossible. But mandates are a means to an end and whether they are the most effective means has not been established. Mandates feed the narratives of the lunatics and the fence sitters see that. Whether we net more jabs is the question and in some parts of the country I think we will not.
    Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.

  3. #12778
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    I tend to agree with jono that the mandates may have the unintended effect of hardening the anti-COVID vaccination mentality and it may in fact spread to other vaccinations we currently consider as routine.
    perhaps

    this is the modern conundrum:
    facts can't be abandoned to stroke the egos of the ones slurping up disinformation.
    and, unless confronted with the errors very directly, the misinformed just keep on keeping on, often dismissing politely-delivered correcting info...which is fine unless it affects others

  4. #12779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    Setting ID's governor aside, this. Every word.



    At this point, vaccination is just another front in the culture war. I could drive around and tell you people's vax status from their bumper stickers, lawn signs, and tee shirts. Reasoned consideration is over - that is, if it ever existed. American exceptionalism alright...
    These seem relevant.

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  5. #12780
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    Idaho, where there is no mask mandate, we're in statewide crisis care, 50% vaccine rate, there are no ICU beds available, our top export is sick people, our GOP Lt. Gov is standing on the steps of the capital building saying PRIVATE businesses are taking away freedoms, we just appointed an anti-vax testing facility owner to our CDH, and we're going forward with a 30,000 in-person football game this weekend and a 20,000 person music festival next week all within a mile of my house.

    I expect the ridicule.

  6. #12781
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    OMG. That's quite LITERALLY exactly what I was saying at the time too. But I got bashed for wanting to wait for more data. See my point? When certain people like them say something, they're being "scientific" with their approach. So wise. So bold. When I say quite literally the same thing, it's going against "teh SiEnTS!"
    Can you provide an example of you saying the same thing? Apart from you saying kids are different, which is also the FDA's current position, the only thing I could find is you claiming vaccines were causing strokes in young women and saying the Tuskegee experiments shows we can't trust Covid vaccines. Those aren't examples of you saying LITERALLY exactly the same thing at the time.

    Whereas to use your mask example, while you were telling everyone about your friends who'd rather die than take any precautions folks here were discussing how the CDC's recommendations on masks at the time were wrong.

    There's a German word 'Bildungsphilister' or dogma-prone newspaper reader that defines why you receive so much push back. MontuckyFried = Bildungsphilister, a person who takes politics literally and science metaphorically rather than the reverse, for example.

  7. #12782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    I think the point is obesity is a killer in America. Costs lives. Not covid like cause it doesn't transmit..

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app
    Damn. I wasnt even going to wait for the mandate to get the fatshot.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  8. #12783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.
    Depends

  9. #12784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.
    took years for everyone with measles I think (4 or 5)....not that this makes it better or worse, but thats how it went. 9 months is short really.

  10. #12785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    At this point, vaccination is just another front in the culture war. I could drive around and tell you people's vax status from their bumper stickers, lawn signs, and tee shirts. Reasoned consideration is over - that is, if it ever existed. American exceptionalism alright...
    Imagine if an arbiter could be brought in from some other planet who hasn't previously heard about Covid. "Let's see, there's a global pandemic with over 225 million cases worldwide that's killed (conservatively) 4.5 million people so far. Effective vaccines have been developed and in use for over a year with close to six billion doses administered. Um, what's the question again? Beam me up, Scotty!"

  11. #12786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Damn. I wasnt even going to wait for the mandate to get the fatshot.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    me either....they need to work on it cause i like beer and good food too much.

  12. #12787
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    To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

    I want to see some solid benefit-cost analyses of mandates versus no mandates. People will get vaxed if itís mandated. They wonít be happy about it, but itíll drastically change the current situation. Thereís gotta be some good ways to mitigate the potential costs of pissing people off that are forced to vax.

    A guided dose of lsd/mdma should be considered

  13. #12788
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  14. #12789
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Depends
    You must love to hear your keyboard click.

  15. #12790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    Idaho, where there is no mask mandate, we're in statewide crisis care, 50% vaccine rate, there are no ICU beds available, our top export is sick people, our GOP Lt. Gov is standing on the steps of the capital building saying PRIVATE businesses are taking away freedoms, we just appointed an anti-vax testing facility owner to our CDH, and we're going forward with a 30,000 in-person football game this weekend and a 20,000 person music festival next week all within a mile of my house.

    I expect the ridicule.
    The ethics of this are fraught, butÖ

    Iím currently leaving in favor of my governor preserving our hospital capacity to perform surgeries and routine procedures for people with life threatening conditions like cancer, emergencies from day to day activities, strokes, etc if that means stopping unvaccinated cases at the border.

    I mean, itís not even ridicule at this point, your states policies are actively harming people in other states.

    I know this doesnít work long term because we may certainly need assistance and cross state border surge capacity as well and how do you filter out those who can get the vaccine from those that canít, etc

  16. #12791
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennymac View Post
    Didn't take a couple years...

  17. #12792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    Didn't take a couple years...
    How many vulnerable people did they spread it to before succumbing to the consequences of their own actions? How many other peoples cancer surgeries did they delay because ďfreedomĒ?

    These questions will be ignored by the shitstains in here who will instead climb up on their high horses and pull out their hair crying ďwhy are you guys celebrating the deaths of the unvaxxed? You selfish assholes! Why canít you be morally righteous like me? Why canít everyoneís opinion be valued the same?Ē

  18. #12793
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    The ethics of this are fraught, but…

    I’m currently leaving in favor of my governor preserving our hospital capacity to perform surgeries and routine procedures for people with life threatening conditions like cancer, emergencies from day to day activities, strokes, etc if that means stopping unvaccinated cases at the border.

    I mean, it’s not even ridicule at this point, your states policies are actively harming people in other states.

    I know this doesn’t work long term because we may certainly need assistance and cross state border surge capacity as well and how do you filter out those who can get the vaccine from those that can’t, etc
    if it weren't cruel, it'd be a satisfying time to say, "no, bootstrap this yourself & take care of your own...state's rights = state's responsibilities"

  19. #12794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.
    Iím gonna need to know more about what happened to Nicki Minajís cousinís friend, personally

  20. #12795
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    I tend to agree with jono that the mandates may have the unintended effect of hardening the anti-COVID vaccination mentality and it may in fact spread to other vaccinations we currently consider as routine.
    Too late - the anti-vax crowd has been around a long time
    You live in PDX, right? You know it’s a hot spot for the “vaccines will give my kid (fill in the blank)” crew, despite it coming from left-leaning folks…
    Check Out Ullr's Mobile Avalanche Safety Tools for iOS and Android
    www.ullrlabs.com

  21. #12796
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Imagine if an arbiter could be brought in from some other planet who hasn't previously heard about Covid. "Let's see, there's a global pandemic with over 225 million cases worldwide that's killed (conservatively) 4.5 million people so far. Effective vaccines have been developed and in use for over a year with close to six billion doses administered. Um, what's the question again? Beam me up, Scotty!"
    It feels like Fognl is going to cancel the show any day now.

    Yeah, the fresh eyes perspective would be shocking, and would raise the question "wait, so America considers themselves to be the leaders? 'cos I'm looking around, and you guys are failing hard!"

  22. #12797
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    Too late - the anti-vax crowd has been around a long time
    You live in PDX, right? You know it’s a hot spot for the “vaccines will give my kid (fill in the blank)” crew, despite it coming from left-leaning folks…
    Yeah, but I can see this changing things a lot more than a few fringe soccer moms.

  23. #12798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    You must love to hear your keyboard click.
    Sorry, just busy. It depends on what happens next. I'd have started with a refundable tax credit of $10/vaccinated day for every person in the country this year. Mandates have universal reach in PR but not in actual effect, whereas tax credits can actually be universal. Mandates for students and other places where vaccination is typically required seem obvious enough without shifting the conversation/reinforcing the opposition's narrative. Where the exact edge of that lies is debatable.

  24. #12799
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    More dodging. More milquetoast. No action. Debate ad infinitum.

  25. #12800
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    perhaps

    this is the modern conundrum:
    facts can't be abandoned to stroke the egos of the ones slurping up disinformation.
    and, unless confronted with the errors very directly, the misinformed just keep on keeping on, often dismissing politely-delivered correcting info...which is fine unless it affects others
    “It is easier to fool someone than it is to convince them that they’ve been fooled”
    —Mark Twain
    Check Out Ullr's Mobile Avalanche Safety Tools for iOS and Android
    www.ullrlabs.com

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