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  1. #12726
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    who opposes mandates while actively campaigning for people to do the right thing is objectively taking the best course.
    I'd have no problem with this position discussion... However, in my observations - there are like 5 maybe 6 people total taking this stance and none in a position of authority. It's a unicorn hypothetical.

    Instead, we have people that are being purposely adversarial to bettering our situation - virtually at all costs....until it's too late. Further, the standard is to use disinformation to undermine any effective means.... this includes:

    COVID denial
    COVID downplay
    COVID as a ruse for "new world order"
    Mask downplay
    Baseless mask 'risks'
    Distancing downplay
    badfaith zero-sum game position pitting COVID/measures vs. Liberty, Economics, your health
    Vaccines don't work
    Vaccines are worse than the disease
    Vaccines as a nefarious mechanism for trans human / tracking / dna modifier - outlandish conspiracy
    Vaccinated vs. unvaxed as equal risks/transmission/outcome
    Conspiracy that leads to some other remedy being denied to us
    Natural immunity as a viable "out" of the situation
    Political boogey-manship - some authority is out to get you
    Players who know the dangers, risks and best course of action but lean into the denier narrative for tribal wins
    Hypocrites who take protective measures themselves but preach non-compliance for political gamesmanship: foreign actors, financial opportunists, political hacks

    I've mentioned before - actual policy discussion is a good thing. Bad-faith posturing, backed by disinformation obfuscation is the opposing narrative norm. I'd love to see it some other way but the benevolent, principled libertarian strawman you present simply isn't representative enough to even enter the conversation - it's used as another ploy... an additional 'what if....." to give legitimacy to those who deserve none.

  2. #12727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    They you're saying a mandate is reasonable if not desirable?
    I'm saying nothing about the desirability of mandates. I'm saying there is a reasonable and honest reason to take either position on the topic and using ad homs to stifle debate reduces vaccination rates.
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
    with wrong ideas that appeal to you, though I am not unkind."

  3. #12728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Mega View Post
    I'd have no problem with this position discussion... However, in my observations - there are like 5 maybe 6 people total taking this stance and none in a position of authority. It's a unicorn hypothetical.
    Idaho governor Brad Little. I'm not a huge fan and disagree with a ton of stuff he does but he's not hypothetical.

  4. #12729
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Idaho governor Brad Little. I'm not a huge fan and disagree with a ton of stuff he does but he's not hypothetical.
    I have to pivot to something else but I guarantee I'll find him adopting one of my above narratives within the last 3 months. Guaranteed. I was just there (beautiful state) but we both know it's a COVID shitshow right now.

  5. #12730
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I'm saying nothing about the desirability of mandates. I'm saying there is a reasonable and honest reason to take either position on the topic and using ad homs to stifle debate reduces vaccination rates.
    I'm asking you about mandates. Do you think mandates are reasonable at this point in time? Not if you like them. Not if you want them. Do you think mandates are reasonable right now?

  6. #12731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Mega View Post
    I have to pivot to something else but I guarantee I'll find him adopting one of my above narratives within the last 3 months. Guaranteed. I was just there (beautiful state) but we both know it's a COVID shitshow right now.
    Of course it is. It's also the least educated state in the nation and one-party ruled, among other problems. I'm sure you can cherry pick something, but as a resident I can tell you his messaging has been consistently non-DeSantis.

  7. #12732
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    Considering that coffee, beer, junk food all have a long-term impact on your DNA, while the mRNA material in a vaccine breaks down in a few days, I'm more concerned now about my diet than anything else.

    Although since coffee and beer have opposite effects, maybe they cancel each other out?

    https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...-Cellular-Life

  8. #12733
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    It must, right? I mean it's always too much to ask you to re-read your posts. Here, lemme help: it's ironic that you complain about the difficulty and personal strain you feel associated with a conversation, while voluntarily participating in that conversation
    Another day in jono inventing conversation to justify his narrative.

    The number of people against vax mandates, but actively campaigning for people to get vaxxed is vanishingly small and mostly confined to a punditocracy.

    and mandates work!

  9. #12734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    I'm asking you about mandates. Do you think mandates are reasonable at this point in time? Not if you like them. Not if you want them. Do you think mandates are reasonable right now?
    Sorry, I took your present tense as a question about my post. I see two ways to look at reasonability, one of which is probably sub-optimal or maybe outright wrong. That one is measuring the desperation of the situation and deciding to go with the most extreme action based on that. I think looking at it that way it's easy to justify mandates right now and maybe a month ago, especially if you started with more narrow targets.

    The right way to look at this is asking whether mandates get us the maximum gain in vaccination rates and public trust in the long term--and if those two are at odds with each other, is the magnitude of the gain worth the long term cost? I'm not sure about that. Maybe so. Mandate effectiveness probably varies by location, among other things.

    I'm sure that deserves honest debate and that dishonest debate is counterproductive, just like lying about masks.

  10. #12735
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Nope. I'm saying that labeling people that disagree with mandates as necessarily un-American or anti-vax is intellectually dishonest and drives down credibility, which interferes with education etc. It's counterproductive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    ^This.
    Recognize the core fibers of The Reformation in American culture and leverage that.

    You two tonedeaf motherfuckers need to get a room.

    At some point, the needs of the many outweigh the desires of the few to pursue temporary political happiness by owning the Libs.






    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ovid-19/620024

  11. #12736
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    It's always beautiful when highanger and CJ come together.

  12. #12737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    So if Moderna now "owns me" do they support me or am I like a stapler?
    Haven’t you always been like a stapler, even before vaccination?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  13. #12738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Mega View Post
    Further, the standard is to use disinformation to undermine any effective means.... this includes:

    COVID downplay <---FAUCI DID THIS FEB 2020
    Mask downplay <---HE DID THIS TOO FEB 2020
    Distancing downplay <---NANCY PELOSI DID THIS ("COME ON DOWN TO CHINA TOWN!")
    Vaccines <--BIDEN AND HARRIS BOTH MADE STATEMENTS WARNING AGAINST THE VACCINE LAST YEAR
    Were any of those instances "disinformation", or is it only disinformation when people you consider opposition say the exact same things? Last year, when I too had questions about the not yet released vaccine, I was labeled anti-vax and all that nonsense with you guys, DESPITE Biden and Harris having the exact same concerns. Yet you weren't calling them out? When I thought it was a bad idea to encourage people to congregate en masse, whilst Pelosi was telling people to come on down for the party, were you calling her out? When Fauci was saying we didn't really need masks since only N95s work for viruses and only sick or health care workers needed them, were you calling him out? Even when he literally said they had to lie to save PPE for healthcare workers, were you labelling his previous statements "Disinformation"? Prolly not. Never mind that an admitted lie from the government about masks was LITERALLY textbook and intentional "disinformation."

  14. #12739
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    Quote Originally Posted by 365wp View Post
    Considering that coffee, beer, junk food all have a long-term impact on your DNA, while the mRNA material in a vaccine breaks down in a few days, I'm more concerned now about my diet than anything else.

    Although since coffee and beer have opposite effects, maybe they cancel each other out?

    https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...-Cellular-Life
    and yet we dont mandate "healthy body weight". Probably on its way though.
    TGR MODS EAT SKIDOG JIZZ

  15. #12740
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Haven’t you always been like a stapler, even before vaccination?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    yeah well... yer mom
    TGR MODS EAT SKIDOG JIZZ

  16. #12741
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Nope. I'm saying that labeling people that disagree with mandates as necessarily un-American or anti-vax is intellectually dishonest and drives down credibility, which interferes with education etc. It's counterproductive.
    I never said un-American. But we're talking about people who are willing to let people die in the hopes of winning elections. These governors are not making principled stands; these are cynical positions. They want Biden to fail and the best way to do that is to keep the pandemic going. We have reached a point where mandates are the only hope we have of controlling the pandemic. Vaccines required for all discretionary activities. Vaccines required to work. Masks required indoors. Heavy fines to venues and employers who don't enforce. And I'm sure these obstructionist governors are hoping to provoke this heavy-handed approach--the same way bin Laden hoped to provoke a heavy-handed approach and succeeded. We have reached the lowest point in American history since the Civil War.

    We are way beyond credibility and education. So called lack of credibility--the Fauci/mask thing and people saying they need more information--these are not reasons. These are rationalizations. You want to play by the rules. You can't play by the rules unless the other side is playing by the same rules. The other side--the politicize the pandemic side-- has no rules. "Just win baby."
    Last edited by old goat; 09-17-2021 at 05:42 PM.

  17. #12742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    and yet we dont mandate "healthy body weight". Probably on its way though.
    One could only hope.

    That’s really a false equivalence, but you know that.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  18. #12743
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    To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    One could only hope.

    That’s really a false equivalence, but you know that.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    No I think that its a hint that he has a magic shot that confers 60-90 % chance of not becoming fat. We will here big things about Skidog’s fat vaccine soon enough!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  19. #12744
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Were any of those instances "disinformation", or is it only disinformation when people you consider opposition say the exact same things? Last year, when I too had questions about the not yet released vaccine, I was labeled anti-vax and all that nonsense with you guys, DESPITE Biden and Harris having the exact same concerns. Yet you weren't calling them out? When I thought it was a bad idea to encourage people to congregate en masse, whilst Pelosi was telling people to come on down for the party, were you calling her out? When Fauci was saying we didn't really need masks since only N95s work for viruses and only sick or health care workers needed them, were you calling him out? Even when he literally said they had to lie to save PPE for healthcare workers, were you labelling his previous statements "Disinformation"? Prolly not. Never mind that an admitted lie from the government about masks was LITERALLY textbook and intentional "disinformation."
    Here's a hint: if your latest example of Democratic misinformation comes from last October (Harris on vaccines) you're probably grasping at straws a bit. Not to defend those statements, but it's pretty clear they were just part of the Presidential campaign posturing and it should be noted the tenor was that they aren't going to listen to Trump about the vaccines, but rather the scientific community. To me that's a significant difference.

    The other examples from February 2020 are just lame. Of course they were wrong at the time. People make mistakes, but hopefully they realize these mistakes and make corrections. The people you need to worry about are those who are so steadfast in their convictions that no amount of contrary evidence can sway them.

  20. #12745
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Why are you going to parties in polite company? That's where you run into people like that. I was just at a party in polite company. Thank goodness I don't have any more kids to to get married.
    well the fish & wine pairing was pretty good, the local skeena salmon and a free meal eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #12746
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    It's always beautiful when highanger and CJ come together.
    And it’s beautiful watching you be a blinkered fart sniffing sanctimonious prick about something other than bikes.

  22. #12747
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I never said un-American. But we're talking about people who are willing to let people die in the hoes of winning elections. These governors are not making principled stands; these are cynical positions. They want Biden to fail and the best way to do that is to keep the pandemic going. We have reached a point where mandates are the only hope we have of controlling the pandemic. Vaccines required for all discretionary activities. Vaccines required to work. Masks required indoors. Heavy fines to venues and employers who don't enforce. And I'm sure these obstructionist governors are hoping to provoke this heavy-handed approach--the same way bin Laden hoped to provoke a heavy-handed approach and succeeded. We have reached the lowest point in American history since the Civil War.

    We are way beyond credibility and education. So called lack of credibility--the Fauci/mask thing and people saying they need more information--these are not reasons. These are rationalizations. You want to play by the rules. You can't play by the rules unless the other side is playing by the same rules. The other side--the politicize the pandemic side-- has no rules. "Just win baby."
    So if you can’t play by the rules, make up wide-spread government mandates to make everyone follow your views and philosophies. Got it. You’re really helping bring us out of the “lowest point since the civil war”

  23. #12748
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    So if you can’t play by the rules, make up wide-spread government mandates to make everyone follow The Constitution General Welfare Clause. Got it. You’re really helping bring us out of the “lowest point since the civil war”
    FIFY
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  24. #12749
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Here's a hint: if your latest example of Democratic misinformation comes from last October (Harris on vaccines) you're probably grasping at straws a bit. Not to defend those statements, but it's pretty clear they were just part of the Presidential campaign posturing and it should be noted the tenor was that they aren't going to listen to Trump about the vaccines, but rather the scientific community. To me that's a significant difference.

    The other examples from February 2020 are just lame. Of course they were wrong at the time. People make mistakes, but hopefully they realize these mistakes and make corrections. The people you need to worry about are those who are so steadfast in their convictions that no amount of contrary evidence can sway them.
    The elephant in the room with all of this Fauci/mask chaff is that isn’t even the argument people opposed to vaccination are making. Mtu thinks his natural immunity from COVID is fine, others think alternative treatments like Regeneron ,ivermectin and hydroxy are better, and they argue that the vaccine is actually unsafe.

    The reality is that basically all of these loud voices spreading this information against vaccination appear to either a) have a profit or political motive or b) are not educated in the relevant science or c) appear to have a mental illness.

  25. #12750
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    The elephant in the room with all of this Fauci/mask chaff is that isn’t even the argument people opposed to vaccination are making. Mtu thinks his natural immunity from COVID is fine, others think alternative treatments like Regeneron ,ivermectin and hydroxy are better, and they argue that the vaccine is actually unsafe.
    Yes, essentially they are willing to try anything other than what the CDC recommends (masks, distancing, vaccines).

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