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  1. #12601
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The lie was bad, no disagreement. But keep in mind it was amplified and misrepresented in a targeted political attack to make Fauci a scapegoat.

    If you go back and look at who said what at the time, it started with Trump not the science because he didn't like masks, then the Vice President, and other cabinet members. But because of the political messaging, messaging that still gets repeated to this day, people forget what was actually said and they forget the mask guidance changed in just a couple of weeks.
    I see two possibilities here: if it was purely a lie, Woodward's Trump recordings seem to indicate that the lie was traveling behind the scenes, too. Completely independent of blame, if Trump was saying "all you have to do is breathe the air" then whoever told him that should have known the importance of masks. They should have explained it to him, too, but he was probably fed the same "white lie" as everyone else--that would have been logical, because who would trust him to reliably help spread a lie? Even if you convince him to try, it's safer just to leave out the part about how to avoid breathing "the air." Backfired--kind of predictably.

    On the other hand there was also legitimate ignorance at the CDC and all the other places where team aerosol had to fight to be heard (for months, following decades of entrenched doctrine), and it's quite possible that many of them really didn't think masks would help outside of flying spittle range. Those who didn't understand how aerosols work shouldn't be expected to know how well masks would work, or which ones would help or in what way they should be used. If we can't all get an N95 the solution is nuanced and required more knowledge than they had. Faced with a shortage, they threw up their hands because they didn't know any better. That's a horrifying failure born of mistrust both of the public and of those outside their own specialty. The fact that they didn't trust Americans in that moment forms the instinctive basis many people now have for not trusting "them."

  2. #12602
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    it would be if it wasn’t true… literally everyone on here bashes the anti-vaxxers and I could go back and find quotes where several members say good riddance to the anti-vaxxers.

    I realize you’re not one of the major ball busters on here but it’s an ironic quote coming from the vaccinated side lol
    It's not true, nowhere near true. "Several" is not 99%.
    And that sort of utterance only makes the dynamic worse and accentuates the ridiculous hyperbole.

    If that's your objective, fine. You should be shut out.
    If it's not your objective, man it up, recant it.

    Being antivax (which means not getting the vaccine ) is childish. But that's a far cry from wishing all antivaxers dead.
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  3. #12603
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Color me unsurprised that skidog is unaware of the data confirming that there are scenarios in which your ‘personal’ choice to not wear a seatbelt endangers others. He keeps repeating that he’s vaxxed, and I assume we’ve all believed him, but it’s irrelevant to the criticism of his bullshit posts. If you have POC friends that doesn’t mean your racist statements aren’t racist. We have political trolls here who keep on saying ‘I didn’t vote for Trump’ as if that magically means their bullshit regurgitated talking points are more credible.

    Denmark has over 90% of all (not just eligible) people over 50 fully covaxxed and seems on its way toward normalcy.

    The tension between personal freedom and community objectives (from clean sidewalks to restaurant worker hand washing to XXX) is often talked about, but at a personal level the trade off is really temporal. Adults consciously make small sacrifices that may take 5 mins of our time or expose us to a 1:1 Million risk of an adverse effect to achieve a longer term benefit for ourselves. This delayed gratification is something toddlers struggle with but these days many adults struggle with it as well.

    During the social upheavals of the 60s and 70s the conservatives were arguing that the liberals were focused on instant gratification and limitless personal choice. These days it seems reversed, with the Left saying ‘Do the Right Thing’ and take action against climate change, etc.
    Denmark is 74 percent fully vaccinated and the rate of first dose is slowing way down.
    Percent of total population.

    As soon as under 12 get vaccinated, this week probably get much higher

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  4. #12604
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    Of you look at uk, there was a wave of Delta, went down, and immediately another wave started.
    In the UK cases started to come down and then went back up after they opened everything up. Because they have such good data we know cases went up with school openings and packed football stadiums.

    The key thing however, even though the UK Delta wave was massive, the deaths associated with the Delta wave were much much lower. The UK saw very few deaths compared with the Alpha wave—it's night and day.


    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    Denmark is 74 percent fully vaccinated and the rate of first dose is slowing way down.
    Percent of total population.

    As soon as under 12 get vaccinated, this week probably get much higher
    It's not just the population percentage that matters, it's also who's getting vaccinated. In contrast with a lot of other countries like Denmark, the United States has a much higher percentage of older folks refusing vaccines.

  5. #12605
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    To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    it would be if it wasn’t true… literally everyone on here bashes the anti-vaxxers and I could go back and find quotes where several members say good riddance to the anti-vaxxers.

    I realize you’re not one of the major ball busters on here but it’s an ironic quote coming from the vaccinated side lol
    Several is now 99%? No wonder you have so much trouble with pandemic math
    Last edited by mcski; 09-16-2021 at 10:05 AM.

  6. #12606
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    The fact that they didn't trust Americans in that moment forms the instinctive basis many people now have for not trusting "them."
    nah, the mistrust of “them” preceded this and is an attitude untied to actual fact or data. It’s the Same people who didn’t believe cigarettes cause cancer, or that seatbelt laws work.

  7. #12607
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    Florida and Texas have deaths per day higher or almost higher than any of the previous peaks.



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  8. #12608
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    May I interrupt the bickering so deftly seasoned with reason and data to bring your this special thread:
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-K00ks-to-Yurp .

    Give it a thought, maybe even do something positive.
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  9. #12609
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    nah, the mistrust of “them” preceded this and is an attitude untied to actual fact or data. It’s the Same people who didn’t believe cigarettes cause cancer, or that seatbelt laws work.
    There's a spectrum of mistrust. Those you describe are on the extreme end of it and they're not convincing anyone. The ones beating the FUD drums are using anything they can get--see Austin.
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
    with wrong ideas that appeal to you, though I am not unkind."

  10. #12610
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    There's a spectrum of mistrust. Those you describe are on the extreme end of it and they're not convincing anyone. The ones beating the FUD drums are using anything they can get--see Austin.
    the montucky/assholepen/derpbased are doing it because of political tribal loyalty.

  11. #12611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    It's not true, nowhere near true. "Several" is not 99%.
    And that sort of utterance only makes the dynamic worse and accentuates the ridiculous hyperbole.

    If that's your objective, fine. You should be shut out.
    If it's not your objective, man it up, recant it.

    Being antivax (which means not getting the vaccine ) is childish. But that's a far cry from wishing all antivaxers dead.
    Youre right. Several members, if not most I come across, are strongly in the, “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there?

    im not anti-vax. I never have been. I had Covid, got basic flu-like symptoms and have anti-bodies. I don’t see a need for a vaccine when my anti-bodies are still there and working just as well as someone who got a shot. That’s been my stance from the beginning and Im constantly put into the “misinformation/trumpet/anti-Vaxxer” status as deemed by the “borg”

    But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.

  12. #12612
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I see two possibilities here: if it was purely a lie, Woodward's Trump recordings seem to indicate that the lie was traveling behind the scenes, too. Completely independent of blame, if Trump was saying "all you have to do is breathe the air" then whoever told him that should have known the importance of masks. They should have explained it to him, too, but he was probably fed the same "white lie" as everyone else--that would have been logical, because who would trust him to reliably help spread a lie? Even if you convince him to try, it's safer just to leave out the part about how to avoid breathing "the air." Backfired--kind of predictably.

    On the other hand there was also legitimate ignorance at the CDC and all the other places where team aerosol had to fight to be heard (for months, following decades of entrenched doctrine), and it's quite possible that many of them really didn't think masks would help outside of flying spittle range. Those who didn't understand how aerosols work shouldn't be expected to know how well masks would work, or which ones would help or in what way they should be used. If we can't all get an N95 the solution is nuanced and required more knowledge than they had. Faced with a shortage, they threw up their hands because they didn't know any better. That's a horrifying failure born of mistrust both of the public and of those outside their own specialty. The fact that they didn't trust Americans in that moment forms the instinctive basis many people now have for not trusting "them."
    Both scenarios were a factor. There was constant ongoing infighting between the camps wanting to fight the pandemic politically vs scientifically.

    And I don't think there's any question our regulatory state failed us in so many ways. But what doesn't get enough attention is how much of that is driven by our culture. We know resilience and flexibility works. The fact that people are saying they don't trust vaccines because the government was wrong about masks back in March 2000 says a lot about who we are.

  13. #12613
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    the montucky/assholepen/derpbased are doing it because of political tribal loyalty.
    Oversimplifying. People do things for multiple reasons and taking away one or two doesn't change all of their minds but it changes some.

  14. #12614
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    It’s funny how people remember the last 18 months in regards to Covid. I didn’t think that the message was unclear, maybe a bit inconsistent at times. The no mask in the beginning was always about conserving the limited amount of masks for healthcare workers.
    Then perhaps they should have just said that instead of literally telling us that masks were unnecessary. Not a good look when they admit to having lied to us, no matter the motives.

    Look throughout US history about the many, many lies the government has made. From the Tuskegee Syphilis Study to WMDs in Iraq. And then when they literally TELL us they "had" to lie to save PPE, you guys wonder how the public trust has been eroded over time? I'm NOT saying they're wrong on vaccinations et al, but with people being more aware of the government's past shenanigans than ever before, you can't blame people for having reservations. That's all.

  15. #12615
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.
    You are misrepresenting what's happening and you are misinterpreting the situation. People are frustrated with the unvaxxed because they are prolonging the pandemic. To you, a person who keeps denying that fact, it comes across as "good riddance" but what's really happening is people are fed up with all the anti-vax nonsense. A minority are expressing it in ways they don't really mean. Nobody wants to see hospitals filled to capacity with dying Covid patients.

  16. #12616
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    Youre right. Several members, if not most I come across, are strongly in the, “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there?

    im not anti-vax. I never have been. I had Covid, got basic flu-like symptoms and have anti-bodies. I don’t see a need for a vaccine when my anti-bodies are still there and working just as well as someone who got a shot. That’s been my stance from the beginning and Im constantly put into the “misinformation/trumpet/anti-Vaxxer” status as deemed by the “borg”

    But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.
    Do you say or think "good riddance" when a dangerous felon gets killed or badly injured while trying to commit a violent crime that puts others at risk? It's the same thing. Thugs being thugs.. Unmasked antivaxxers are putting the entire community at risk, children and high risk adults where vaccine isn't available or as effective are at risk of severe illness or death simply because someone around them decided their freedumb was more important than public health and safety.

    And then when they do end up in the hospital thanks to their own stupidity or indifference they take valuable ICU space and EMS resources that might not be available when another citizen who did take all the precautions available to them needs them.. accident victims, severe allergy, heat attack etc.. who probably survive die when those resources are taken up by stupidity. Yes, good riddance..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  17. #12617
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there? .
    Your post came up today in response to me saying someone I know who is vaxx'd can't get a bed because the ICUs are full and turned that into what you wrote above. I did mention her family is unvaxx'd and changing their minds. I take back what I said. You're not only an asshole, you have a problem with details too.

  18. #12618
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The fact that people are saying they don't trust vaccines because the government was wrong about masks back in March 2000 says a lot about who we are.
    Definitely. Locally I see a reservoir of covidiots whose real issue started when they staked their claim on the plandemic hill back when masks were the issue and now they're going to die on it. The issue is simple psychology: they're entrenched now and they're not letting go. Ironically, the vast majority of them are alleged Christians who couldn't be bothered to check in with their religious beliefs (how's Leviticus for a test/mask/isolate mandate?) because that would have meant breaking with their political hero. So the cognitive dissonance must just be deafening.

  19. #12619
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    mtu, I assume you’re familiar with empathy fatigue? I assume you’ve read the posters here who’ve said things along the lines of ‘it broke my heart to see all these needless deaths, but so much time has passed during which the arguments against vaccination have been obliterated by factual argument that I’m starting to lose my sympathy toward those who stubbornly insist on believing noncredible sources’.

    People like you have helped reinforce that unhealthy dynamic. And we haven’t forgotten your cavalier statements about whole swaths of the population dying.

  20. #12620
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    Well, this didn't age well. From Feb of last year:
    "Meh. Only N95's work for viruses." "Be more worried about the flu."



    And you guys wonder why people question things. Many of these things didn't start out as right-wing talking points. They were said by St. Fauci himself, and parroted by much of the media. Not that science hasn't changed as we learned more. I get that. But many here are wrong by acting like it's just anti-vax Trumpsters who started these talking points. Unless by right-wing talking points, you meant Fauci, NYT, WaPo, etc.

  21. #12621
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Well, this didn't age well. From Feb of last year:
    If you have to reach back that far you're the one keeping BS alive. No one reasons perfectly, and some people refuse to see what's right in front of them. You see that's a mistake, so quit excusing it.

  22. #12622
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    Yeah MontuckyFried has posted that so many times. Even though Fauci says from the outset back in February 2000 "the risk is low right now but that could change... this could evolve into a global pandemic" MontuckyFried remains stuck in the past rehashing the same old arguments over-and-over.

  23. #12623
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtuhockey33 View Post
    Youre right. Several members, if not most I come across, are strongly in the, “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there?

    im not anti-vax. I never have been. I had Covid, got basic flu-like symptoms and have anti-bodies. I don’t see a need for a vaccine when my anti-bodies are still there and working just as well as someone who got a shot. That’s been my stance from the beginning and Im constantly put into the “misinformation/trumpet/anti-Vaxxer” status as deemed by the “borg”

    But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.
    OK.

    So if it's several, then please don't go veering off on some conic section of Miss Information. It's that kind of vitriol that contributes to greater and greater hostility. Which does nothing but further the divide so carefully wrought by our oligarchical overlords.

    I do think it's more common to have compassion for people we feel are in our communities and more hostility for those outside. That doesn't make it right or reasonable. Compassion across the board takes real strength. The kind that esq apes me much of the time.

    But your ongoing claim of natural antibodies being as good as Moderna or Pfizer vaccine is not supported by the data. People tire of rerereiterating the facts about this and when people get tired, we're not as magnanimous as we should be.
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  24. #12624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    Your post came up today in response to me saying someone I know who is vaxx'd can't get a bed because the ICUs are full and turned that into what you wrote above. I did mention her family is unvaxx'd and changing their minds. I take back what I said. You're not only an asshole, you have a problem with details too.
    I also think he's wrong about changing our minds if we know someone personally. If I knew someone who could have been vaxxed but chose not to and then ended up in the ICU with Covid I'd be thinking "why did you have to be such a fucking idiot?" I wouldn't be saying "good riddance," but I certainly wouldn't be saying "they had their reasons," either.

  25. #12625
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    I also think he's wrong about changing our minds if we know someone personally. If I knew someone who could have been vaxxed but chose not to and then ended up in the ICU with Covid I'd be thinking "why did you have to be such a fucking idiot?" I wouldn't be saying "good riddance," but I certainly wouldn't be saying "they had their reasons," either.
    Yeah. My father-in-law has lost two unvaccinated cousins to covid. My grandpa lost a long term friend and business associated (much younger than my grandpa) to covid who was unvaccinated. Two women in my office each lost their dads who were unvaccinated. For all these, there were not underlying conditions. My response when I heard of their passings from others was "were they vaccinated?" to which none were. My next comment was "sorry to hear it, that could have gone differently". I don't remember ever thinking they deserved it. But none of these people were those with loudspeakers saying this was all a hoax or posting on the internet against vaccines or protesting my body my choice.

    Those people like the Texas FB lady, yeah, karma happened.

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