To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Buster Highmen]

at what point does it become ok to call out bad faith participation in this back/forth dance?

depends on how it's called out.
Losing patience, which I do all the time, and using some pejorative or insult is fail and succumbing to the bad faith.
Going back to the bare facts and continuing to be patient might work. That is hard.

Who knows. We're fucked as things stand, lots of people failing to get vaxxed. It makes no sense from a reality point of view, so it must be rooted in the emo dynamics, which are almost always consistently disrespectful.

[huckbucket]

depends on how it's called out.
Losing patience, which I do all the time, and using some pejorative or insult is fail and succumbing to the bad faith.
Going back to the bare facts and continuing to be patient might work. That is hard.

Who knows. We're fucked as things stand, lots of people failing to get vaxxed. It makes no sense from a reality point of view, so it must be rooted in the emo dynamics, which are almost always consistently disrespectful.

I totally disagree and will go back to my position. False, dogmatic beliefs are the problem. People like mtu are convinved they are capable of understanding complex situations better than highly qualified, subject matter experts! I suppose you could argue that they dig their heels in deeper when attacked, but at the root of all of this is a self-belief in skills and knowledge that simply isn't there.

[CarlMega]

at what point does it become ok to call out bad faith participation in this back/forth dance?

Exactly this.

I used to keep quiet, never venturing into the futility of political opinion online.

It took a while, but I finally recognized the power of concerted disinformation and believe it is critical that we call it out as we see it. Granted, I throw in some shame at the same time so I concede that vice.

However, to paint this as opposing policy ideas is glib - it is bad faith pure and simple. Giving it the legitimacy of policy discourse is the exploited flaw in the system.

The absolute shamelessness and willingness to spread FUD as weapon, without concern for the real-life ramifications in order to win political power.

[Buster Highmen]

I totally disagree and will go back to my position. False, dogmatic beliefs are the problem. People like mtu are convinved they are capable of understanding complex situations better than highly qualified, subject matter experts! I suppose you could argue that they dig their heels in deeper when attacked, but at the root of all of this is a self-belief in skills and knowledge that simply isn't there.

OK, we disgree, except now you've modified your position to include "false".

But why do mtu et al dig in like that?

I disagree that these folks really think they have these skills. They know they don't have the references to back up their positions, they never post them.

I am arguing why they dig their heels in like that. And I think that it's largely because they get treated dismissively at best when confronted with the data.


Maybe both of us are exhibiting self-belief in skills and knowledge that simply isn't there in this regard.

Repeating what so obviously doesn't work is not what science suggests. Stick with the data and arguments, leave the disrespect.

[Ted Striker]

...at the root of all of this is a self-belief in skills and knowledge that simply isn't there.

"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt"

Les Claypool
inventor of velcro

[Buster Highmen]

Exactly this.

I used to keep quiet, never venturing into the futility of political opinion online.

It took a while, but I finally recognized the power of concerted disinformation and believe it is critical that we call it out as we see it. Granted, I throw in some shame at the same time so I concede that vice.

However, to paint this as opposing policy ideas is glib - it is bad faith pure and simple. Giving it the legitimacy of policy discourse is the exploited flaw in the system.

The absolute shamelessness and willingness to spread FUD as weapon, without concern for the real-life ramifications in order to win political power.

It's always OK to call out bad faith participation, disinformation or falsehoods.

All I'm suggesting is to try and dump the shame because it's obvious that shame isn't working. What else does the scientific method tell us?

[Mofro261]

For those not here for the polyass discussions, some science and some cool virus animations in the link below.
How the coronavirus infects cells — and why Delta is so dangerous
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02039-y

Also in the above link: the scientific reason that HCQ does not work for COVID treatment.

The virus that causes SARS, SARS-CoV, uses either of two host protease enzymes to break in: TMPRSS2 (pronounced ‘tempress two’) or cathepsin L. TMPRSS2 is the faster route in, but SARS-CoV often enters instead through an endosome — a lipid-surrounded bubble — which relies on cathepsin L. When virions enter cells by this route, however, antiviral proteins can trap them.


SARS-CoV-2 differs from SARS-CoV because it efficiently uses TMPRSS2, an enzyme found in high amounts on the outside of respiratory cells. First, TMPRSS2 cuts a site on the spike’s S2 subunit8. That cut exposes a run of hydrophobic amino acids that rapidly buries itself in the closest membrane — that of the host cell. Next, the extended spike folds back onto itself, like a zipper, forcing the viral and cell membranes to fuse.

The virus then ejects its genome directly into the cell. By invading in this spring-loaded manner, SARS-CoV-2 infects faster than SARS-CoV and avoids being trapped in endosomes, according to work published in April by Barclay and her colleagues at Imperial College London9.


The virus’s speedy entry using TMPRSS2 explains why the malaria drug chloroquine didn’t work in clinical trials as a COVID-19 treatment, despite early promising studies in the lab10. Those turned out to have used cells that rely exclusively on cathepsins for endosomal entry. “When the virus transmits and replicates in the human airway, it doesn’t use endosomes, so chloroquine, which is an endosomal disrupting drug, is not effective in real life,” says Barclay.

[Skidog]

"I get there are things we dont want in developing bodies"

Then you'll understand that assessing safety in children is not the same as assessing safety in adults which is the entire point of the clinical trial. The advisory committee associated with the trial(s) will look at the totality of the data and weight the benefit versus the side effects and then make a recommendation to the FDA. Up until Delta there was less urgency in getting the trials completed because the prior variants were not as contageous. But now it seems that the "benefit" quotient of the equation as represented by the protection afforded by the vaccine might quickly outpace the risk, although that's TBD.

How does one arrive at the "12" number is my question to this.. as I said originally not all 12 yr olds are created equal...Just hoping i can get the little one stuck soon.....he's the holdout..

Looks like masks are being asked for locally here in the hudson valley. I dont mind....easy enough thing to do.....not all places have signs "asking" yet, but I went to the bank and Autozone today and both had signs asking to wear vaxxed or not.

[CarlMega]

How does one arrive at the "12" number is my question to this.. as I said originally not all 12 yr olds are created equal...Just hoping i can get the little one stuck soon.....he's the holdout..

A guess is that is arbitrary in reference to any specific vaccine/test but a median age that is reliable enough to assume it is before you develop 2ndary sex characteristics.

Maybe something like: Upper age where you can delineate reliably between those who have completed secondary sex characteristics/puberty and those who did not.

[Buster Highmen]

Also in the above link: the scientific reason that HCQ does not work for COVID treatment.

The glycan encrusted spikes waving:

[huckbucket]

How does one arrive at the "12" number is my question to this.. as I said originally not all 12 yr olds are created equal...Just hoping i can get the little one stuck soon.....he's the holdout..

Looks like masks are being asked for locally here in the hudson valley. I dont mind....easy enough thing to do.....not all places have signs "asking" yet, but I went to the bank and Autozone today and both had signs asking to wear vaxxed or not.

These are the traditional age ranges used by the FDA to guide clinical trial design. The 12 year old cutoff is in part due to it being the average age of puberty for both boys and girls (obviously there's a range).

· Preterm newborn infants
· Term newborn infants (0 to 27 days)
· Infants and toddlers (28 days to 23 months)
· Children (2 to 11 years)
· Adolescents (12 to 16-18 years (dependent on region))

[huckbucket]

OK, we disgree, except now you've modified your position to include "false".

But why do mtu et al dig in like that?

I disagree that these folks really think they have these skills. They know they don't have the references to back up their positions, they never post them.

I am arguing why they dig their heels in like that. And I think that it's largely because they get treated dismissively at best when confronted with the data.


Maybe both of us are exhibiting self-belief in skills and knowledge that simply isn't there in this regard.

Repeating what so obviously doesn't work is not what science suggests. Stick with the data and arguments, leave the disrespect.

Sorry. "False" is the key word. I could give a shit if someone wants to believe that apples are the most delicious fruit. But if their opinion is demonstrably false and if that belief directly effects myself or others, and if they are clearly "dug in," then I don't have much patience. The other thing that's deeply troubling is when someone who is uncredentialed attacks someone who is an expert. Anyone can ask questions if it's a genuine attempt to understand, but the idea that a non-expert believes they can shortcut decades of experience and knowledge is mind boggling.

[old_newguy]

I think Buster has an excellent point about the insults not working. It plays right into the snobby intellectual stereotype that has been constructed.

At the same time, I am sympathetic to the insults directed at those who typically show up with some snarky politically derived comment with the goal of spreading disinformation and pretending like the have equal footing with experts.

[yeahman]

Interesting story that appeared in our local paper this weekend. And somewhat ironic given that MT is still below 50 percent fully covid vaxxed.

The Polio Pioneers: Montana was at forefront of fighting crippling disease

[old goat]

Their names are Krista, Kayla, Kyla, and Kara. His wife's name is Karla. Krista (the antivax one) played in the Lingerie Football League. Kyla just opened up a store called KyKy's Kookies, but quickly changed the name after the possibly risky KKK alliteration was pointed out to them. Kayla was throwing out sound medical advice late 2020 suggesting natural immunity > vaccination. Kara is apparently a successful reporter with 52 twitter followers.

Point is they're all 3rd generation $$$ which is typically where douchebaggery peaks and seem like a weird family. He honestly doesn't come across as someone who'd want to bang his own children and hasn't ever said anything to suggest so AFAIK.

Those are a bunch of people who don't know how to smile unless someone says "Say cheese".

Libs have to own how much of the alt reality pushback is a result of treating those who hold different views like shit i.e. "deplorables".

We're caught in this feedback cycle of increasing shit slinging that won't end until someone owns up to their failures.

Who's got the balls, patience and moxy to be first?

Sometimes there are two equally respectable and rational sides to an argument. This is not one of those times. People are dying because other people are lying--including a certain governor of Florida who is willing to make people die in the hopes he can be President.

[yeahman]

It's always OK to call out bad faith participation, disinformation or falsehoods.

All I'm suggesting is to try and dump the shame because it's obvious that shame isn't working. What else does the scientific method tell us?

A friend of mine who's a lobbyist was quoted recently in a magazine article: “You cannot hammer them into changing their minds. You cannot force them into changing their minds. You cannot embarrass them into changing their minds. You can only educate them into changing their minds.” And, he adds, “It takes a lot of coffee.”

[Buster Highmen]

Sorry. "False" is the key word. I could give a shit if someone wants to believe that apples are the most delicious fruit. But if their opinion is demonstrably false and if that belief directly effects myself or others, and if they are clearly "dug in," then I don't have much patience. The other thing that's deeply troubling is when someone who is uncredentialed attacks someone who is an expert. Anyone can ask questions if it's a genuine attempt to understand, but the idea that a non-expert believes they can shortcut decades of experience and knowledge is mind boggling.

OK.
I don't believe in the zero sum either/or dynamic in this or lots of other social fractures. I think you've got a point and so do I.

So, please, just consider putting a little more effort in the patience and respect end of it. If we can all do that, maybe we can really convince more people in all these rifts to the benefit of all.

[Buster Highmen]

A friend of mine who's a lobbyist was quoted recently in a magazine article: “You cannot hammer them into changing their minds. You cannot force them into changing their minds. You cannot embarrass them into changing their minds. You can only educate them into changing their minds.” And, he adds, “It takes a lot of coffee.”

^This.

[Buster Highmen]

Sometimes there are two equally respectable and rational sides to an argument. This is not one of those times. People are dying because other people are lying--including a certain governor of Florida who is willing to make people die in the hopes he can be President.

I could say "well DUH" couldn't I?
Or I could agree.

But in the large, the goal is to get people to listen to the facts, the data, the science.

If we keep treating people, the hoi polloi, the average joe, like shit, the science won't matter to them.

DeSantis is his own problem.

[Buster Highmen]

I think Buster has an excellent point about the insults not working. It plays right into the snobby intellectual stereotype that has been constructed.

At the same time, I am sympathetic to the insults directed at those who typically show up with some snarky politically derived comment with the goal of spreading disinformation and pretending like the have equal footing with experts.

Thanks.

And yup. I can't help myself either, so I'm part of the problem of alienating.

[bagtagley]

Maybe you can’t change their minds. The disinformation didn’t form in a vacuum. It grew out of frustration that the messaging from major news sources and forward thinking politicians didn’t align with their beliefs. Racists don’t want to be told that racism is wrong. Misogynists don’t want to be told that misogyny is wrong. People that profit from the destruction of the earth don’t want to be told that their way of life is causing harm. A lot of the progressive messaging is disrespectful by default because it inherently says that some people are doing it wrong. The us vs them infighting has grown out of that because it’s a great diversion that allows the people in power to get away with more. It makes it easy to push the extremes to the forefront so that we forget that “those people” are fellow humans, our friends and neighbors, struggling with the same shit that we are.

[Buster Highmen]

From mofros Nature article, this is interesting



Many viruses have glycans covering their outer proteins, camouflaging them from the human immune system like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But last year, Amaro’s laboratory group and collaborators created the most detailed visualization yet of this coat, based on structural and genetic data and rendered atom-by-atom by a supercomputer. On 22 March 2020, she posted the simulation to Twitter. Within an hour, one researcher asked in a comment: what was the naked, uncoated loop sticking out of the top of the protein?

Amaro had no idea. But ten minutes later, structural biologist Jason McLellan at the University of Texas at Austin chimed in: the uncoated loop was a receptor binding domain (RBD), one of three sections of the spike that bind to receptors on human cells (see ‘A hidden spike’).

In Amaro’s simulation, when the RBD lifted up above the glycan cloud, two glycans swooped in to lock it into place, like a kickstand on a bicycle. When Amaro mutated the glycans in the computer model, the RBD collapsed. McLellan’s team built a way to try the same experiment in the lab, and by June 2020, the collaborators had reported that mutating the two glycans reduced the ability of the spike protein to bind to a human cell receptor1 — a role that no one has previously recognized in coronaviruses, McLellan says. It’s possible that snipping out those two sugars could reduce the virus’s infectivity, says Amaro, although researchers don’t yet have a way to do this.

[Adolf Allerbush]

OK.
I don't believe in the zero sum either/or dynamic in this or lots of other social fractures. I think you've got a point and so do I.

So, please, just consider putting a little more effort in the patience and respect end of it. If we can all do that, maybe we can really convince more people in all these rifts to the benefit of all.

I don't know if you listened to that piece on The Daily where they interviewed antivaccers but the last woman really seemed completely uninformed. The interviewer asked how her grandmother died, and to summarize she had COPD but also contracted COVID-19 during a graduation party that the woman being interviewed hosted. She went on to say that her death certificate listed COPD and COVID-19 but that she didn't really die of COVID-19. The interviewer asks "well, if she didn't have COVID do you think she would've died" and the response was something along the lines of "well it weakened her body, so yeah we probably should have gotten her vaccinated and that could have saved her." Point is that the interviewer was kind and patient with her, didn't put her down but gently asked questions that obviously lead this woman to understand that she probably killed her grandma. However, she still thinks she won't be getting vaccinated.

[::: :::]

DeSantis is our problem.

he's kind of a model for the discussion as he is a bad faith mouthpiece that is filling heads with bullshit


Buster, i do appreciate your interest in keeping conversations civil -- it really is the high road & worthy of saying out loud every now & then as a reminder, as we all suffer from lapses

[MagnificentUnicorn]

How does one arrive at the "12" number is my question to this.. as I said originally not all 12 yr olds are created equal...Just hoping i can get the little one stuck soon.....he's the holdout..

Looks like masks are being asked for locally here in the hudson valley. I dont mind....easy enough thing to do.....not all places have signs "asking" yet, but I went to the bank and Autozone today and both had signs asking to wear vaxxed or not.

In medicine, 12 years is usually considered the age that separates children from adults physiologically. Yes there are outliers but in general it’s a good reference.


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