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  1. #16776
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    I was with you until the last sentence, goat - and
    it is really an Excellent piece - Thank you.

    However -and this just occurred to me Now -
    to me, 'the blame ( hate that concept) ' ... the blame only lies with one person. and that's the person who chooses not to be vaccinated.

    If it is about individual freedom, it is also about individual Responsibility.

    Religion and beliefs ?
    what does that Bible say about one's Responsibility to one's neighbor (?)

    ( I am thinking of,
    ' ... Love your neighbor as (you love) yourself. . . ' )


    in 2021, judges are just another aspect of our Government
    ( how did they get to be judges (?)
    I'm pretty-sure the Federal judges are (political) appointees. )

    so I will not find my answer there.

    But in March, I will ask my friend who has just survived covid to please get vaccinated - Because with their freedom to choose, also comes their Responsibility to those around them.

    if their individual choice is more important than their Responsibility,
    they are not the friend I thought they are for almost forty years
    ( our friendship is already changing. it's sad. )

    this is why this feels like a historic period to me.
    Stuff like this changes nations.


    I won't say 'blame'. But

    the Responsibility lies with each-and-every individual who says, 'no, I won't be vaccinated.
    ( my individual choice is more important than my Responsibility to (others) ).


    respectfully. tj

  2. #16777
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    <snip>Because with their freedom to choose, also comes their Responsibility to those around them.
    This is the whole crux of the matter. The anti vax types don’t get the second part.

  3. #16778
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    thanks, TBS -

    my friend does. Everything else about his life is Service to others.

    he disclaims some of the Science, and has almost forty years to defend those doubts.
    it ( vaccination ) ain't perfect, but it is a Good start.


    I see the selfishness in the cynics in this thread, and in others I know who are unvaccinated.

    and this will be a new angle for me ( because I am beat-to-death with the freedom / natural immunity / My body, My choice b.s. )


    thanks... tj

  4. #16779
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    So I just found out that the antivax lady who rode MTB with our crew this summer got a religious exemption to the mandate for all teachers in OR.

    She is an atheist - told me that a couple of times
    So the religion cited for exemption has to be First Church of the Irrational Snowflakes. Of the Order of St Karen
    Baffled that the school district allowed this, but what do I know...

    Thinking broadly, all religion is irrational so one irrational belief is as good as another I guess...

    OTOH,
    - her nascent BF dumped her over this, and
    - she can't ski for free any more because the the adaptive sports org she volunteered with has a vax requirement w/ no exemptions. And nobody from that crew wants to ski with her any more.

  5. #16780
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    Their are small victories like this happening everywhere. It’s not much of a silver lining but I’m guessing so many people in HR are thrilled with mandates with no exemptions.

  6. #16781
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    I was with you until the last sentence, goat - and
    it is really an Excellent piece - Thank you.

    However -and this just occurred to me Now -
    to me, 'the blame ( hate that concept) ' ... the blame only lies with one person. and that's the person who chooses not to be vaccinated.

    If it is about individual freedom, it is also about individual Responsibility.

    Religion and beliefs ?
    what does that Bible say about one's Responsibility to one's neighbor (?)

    ( I am thinking of,
    ' ... Love your neighbor as (you love) yourself. . . ' )


    in 2021, judges are just another aspect of our Government
    ( how did they get to be judges (?)
    I'm pretty-sure the Federal judges are (political) appointees. )

    so I will not find my answer there.

    But in March, I will ask my friend who has just survived covid to please get vaccinated - Because with their freedom to choose, also comes their Responsibility to those around them.

    if their individual choice is more important than their Responsibility,
    they are not the friend I thought they are for almost forty years
    ( our friendship is already changing. it's sad. )

    this is why this feels like a historic period to me.
    Stuff like this changes nations.


    I won't say 'blame'. But

    the Responsibility lies with each-and-every individual who says, 'no, I won't be vaccinated.
    ( my individual choice is more important than my Responsibility to (others) ).


    respectfully. tj
    Sorry, but the individual responsibility thing isn't working and I'm sick and tired of waiting any longer. The reason we have laws is because left to their own devices most people will happily hurt strangers, a lot of people will hurt their neighbors, and some people will hurt their friends and families. So you can talk all you want about how it is important that people take responsibility but they aren't doing it and they need to be forced. And yeah, if judges ignore the law and substitute their own prejudices then I blame them. Without regret. History will blame them and condemn them like it judges the Justices who voted for Dred Scott, Plessy, and the internment of Japanese. If we have a future to look back from, which I am not confidant of.

  7. #16782
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Sorry, but the individual responsibility thing isn't working and I'm sick and tired of waiting any longer. The reason we have laws is because left to their own devices most people will happily hurt strangers, a lot of people will hurt their neighbors, and some people will hurt their friends and families. So you can talk all you want about how it is important that people take responsibility but they aren't doing it and they need to be forced. And yeah, if judges ignore the law and substitute their own prejudices then I blame them. Without regret. History will blame them and condemn them like it judges the Justices who voted for Dred Scott, Plessy, and the internment of Japanese. If we have a future to look back from, which I am not confidant of.
    I sadly agree with this as someone with a predilection toward libertarian ideals. Reality is an ass and human nature is a bitch.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  8. #16783
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    Isn't it just down to a function or mathematical equation? Trying to keep the total amount of covid hospitalization below some % of the hospital capacity lets say 25% . Where the variables are amount of restrictions on vaxxed RV and unvaxxed RD ( for deplorables) vaxx passports so deplorables can't get into bars, the rate of unvaxxed QD ( mass of deplorables), rate % of previous infection in QD which reduces transmission a bit. At some point will reach steady state where enough of the hard core anti have been infected and recovered or died to reduce incidence of infection. High profile death memes of high profile anti vaxxers pushing the QD a bit lower but not in a sustained way . Countries that can get to a very low level of QD the soonest will be the winners like Singapore. The US seems like one of the big losers in that game. Canada's win is that it seems like we have 1/2 the number of deplorables that the US has on a rate basis. Hopefully they move south for some of that sweet freedum.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  9. #16784
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    judges voted for the Japanese internment (?) news to me.

    the mandate is an Executive Order. to me, it is a stretch to call it a law. laws are passed by the legislative branch ( in my simplistic understanding of our Government )

    . . . I share your dissatisfaction with the unvaccinated population, and I will not find my solution by blaming a judge or judges.
    given our current politicized social climate, ,,, it is just not going to happen.
    a couple of posts up-thread, a 'religious exemption' was granted to an athiest --

    your list of circumstances in which people will 'hurt' other people and ,,, I am not sure what the reference ( Summit's ) to 'reality and human nature' is ( an analogy ? )
    If that's the way you perceive Life, I am sorry. ...


    I was not in any way saying this could be resolved by appealing to individual Responsibility - But, I am sorry, That is what this is about.


    vaccination rates are Poor. it is not as rosy as the politicians would like us to think. Fifty-five percent in my home state ? even the 'seventy percent-ers' are not looking so good right now. . .

    if we want to talk about "Reality" we have to deal with realistic results and realistic expectations.
    in-public indoors, I wear a mask ; I have my booster. six months, plus one day. I am still concerned about carrying the virus to my 'older' neighbors...

    neighborDave said to me last year, 'the Good times are over' and I don't believe he is wrong.

    it might be nice for things to 'return to normal' and things may not return to normal.

    get vaccinations and take precautionary measures You need to protect yourself. others cannot be forced to do what you want - that's not going to happen either.

    . . . get vaccinations and take precautionary measure you need to protect yourself.


    teletech's tale is actually a cautionary one -
    he thought he was Safe in his highly vaccinated community. and he was not.
    unvaccinated kids, and Breakthrough infections -

    and this afternoon, I am watching stadiums filled with tens of thousands of people, elbow-to-elbow.


    I do not believe laws are going to be passed that require people to be vaccinated for covid. and
    while I will continue to promote vaccination, I am also willing to deal with the 'Reality' of 'human nature'.

    vaccination And protective measures. for me, that means I avoid group settings ( including restaurants and theaters. and ski lodges )


    I wish you peacefulness. with respect. tj


    postscript. seeing Doug's post -

    I have friends in medicine who say, If one is unvaccinated, stay home - take care of yourself, do not seek health care if one gets sick.

    we are seeing some of that - medical care providers who will not accept unvaccinated patients. I see that.

    percent of medical care dedicated to care for the unvaccinated : Zero.

  10. #16785
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    Today, my entire experience kind of puzzles me. I was driving into town and saw a van with a COVID vaccine sign in an recently closed commercial space. I passed it, turned pulled in and asked whether they were doing boosters. They told me that they were. They had Pfizer only. I explained that I was under 65 with no real medical issues and had received the second Moderna dose in March. I was told, no problem you qualify for a booster. I showed them my "Docket" immunization record for the two previous shots, filled out a form, asked about payment. I was told that the booster is free. The funny thing is that I was never asked for my ins, info. I received the shot. Sore arm, but no side effects, so far. The company that administered the shot was NOMI Health. It seems legit.?. There was a governmental seal on the truck, and a website. Kind of a strange experience.
    “How does it feel to be the greatest guitarist in the world? I don’t know, go ask Rory Gallagher”. — Jimi Hendrix

  11. #16786
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    judges voted for the Japanese internment (?) news to me.
    Korematsu v. United States, possibly the worst SCOTUS decision of the 20th century.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  12. #16787
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    Today, my entire experience kind of puzzles me. I was driving into town and saw a van with a COVID vaccine sign in an recently closed commercial space. I passed it, turned pulled in and asked whether they were doing boosters. They told me that they were. They had Pfizer only. I explained that I was under 65 with no real medical issues and had received the second Moderna dose in March. I was told, no problem you qualify for a booster. I showed them my "Docket" immunization record for the two previous shots, filled out a form, asked about payment. I was told that the booster is free. The funny thing is that I was never asked for my ins, info. I received the shot. Sore arm, but no side effects, so far. The company that administered the shot was NOMI Health. It seems legit.?. There was a governmental seal on the truck, and a website. Kind of a strange experience.
    Did you have the plate o' shrimp luncheon special?




    .
    Last edited by highangle; 11-13-2021 at 09:41 PM.

  13. #16788
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    WWII. There are very few people alive today who understand what was happening in the world in 1940.

    I am pretty-sure the Japanese internment was an Executive Order upheld by the court.
    History does not see it kindly ( 'the worst decision' ) and I am sure there are plenty of others if we review history ,,, Black history. ( edit. to add the treatment of indigenous people. )

    I will do some reading -
    I stand by my point that the judges do not create law. tj
    Last edited by skiJ; 11-14-2021 at 07:12 AM.

  14. #16789
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    On a lighter note

    An Austrian whorehouse gives guys a free 30 min session with woman of their choice if they get vaxxed at the on-site clinic.

    https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idRCV00AFM0

  15. #16790
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    If we're gonna start facing political realities there are several of them.

    We can afford universal healthcare for the vaccinated. It would be cheaper than what we're doing now.

    We cannot afford universal healthcare because there are plenty of Americans who will take (are taking) advantage of a system that gives them free healthcare if they have no skin in the game.

    We don't have enough legal levers to force enough people to be vaccinated to end the pandemic.

    The Refuseniks are happy to act on spite since the relatively low probability of personal cost (thanks to denial and free healthcare) makes them feel like heroes making a personal sacrifice to stand up against authority.

    I don't see a solution, but there is one obvious move: we should do Singapore.

  16. #16791
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    I have been for shits and giggles posting on Youtube on anti vaxxer comments that we should do a hard Singapore.... they don't like that at all
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  17. #16792
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    I have been for shits and giggles posting on Youtube on anti vaxxer comments that we should do a hard Singapore.... they don't like that at all
    Solid.

  18. #16793
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    SkiJ, an executive order has the force of law. It's not a statue, it's not legislation, but generically speaking it's not a stretch to call it a law.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  19. #16794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    SkiJ, an executive order has the force of law. It's not a statue, it's not legislation, but generically speaking it's not a stretch to call it a law.
    So a sheriff who refuses to enforce an EO, is he constitutionally disqualified?

  20. #16795
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    I have been for shits and giggles posting on Youtube on anti vaxxer comments that we should do a hard Singapore.... they don't like that at all
    This needs to get viral. Thanks!

  21. #16796
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    We don't have enough legal levers to force enough people to be vaccinated to end the pandemic.
    I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but we cannot vaccinate to herd immunity unless we require vaccines for almost everyone 5+ and I mean including boosters in the requirement. R0 for Delta is 7. For something this contagious you have to mandate it to attend schools like MMR. I'll show the math if you want.

    Vaccines stem the flood tide, but they won't dry the Delta ocean. They'll get us out of the pandemic and into the endemic, specifically in terms of healthcare impact.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  22. #16797
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    guys...

    an excellent post was written, and
    I was in-agreement right up to the point of 'blaming judges' - blaming judges is not going to solve anything.

    I am going to set-aside the matter of Internment -
    the world was a different place in 1942, and it does not compare to the matter of vaccination mandates for covid in 2021 ( and 2022 ) ;
    weeks ago, I said the mandate - an Executive Order - would be challenged in the courts...

    I recognize that Executive Orders Should have authority - and yet
    yesterday, I read Oklahoma is not going to require Oklahoma's National Guard to comply with the mandate
    ( the fine print is If they are Federally-activated, the mandate may be enforced )


    the question I was initially responding to was 'what is the "off-ranp" from the pandemic (?) ' and

    my comment was, it is already there - personal immunity through vaccination and protective precautions - it just hasn't been defined as Policy, Because we still seek 'population immunity. '


    I am vaccinated and boosted;
    I wear a mask in-public indoors;
    I avoid crowds. that includes restaurants and theaters and team sports spectating... ( yesterday, I again watched stadiums full of tens of thousands of people, elbow-to-elbow ). and ski lodges. ( edit (to add). and lift lines )


    while it would be nice for things to 'return to "normal" ;, it may not happen.
    for me, ,,, I probably should have just let the idea of 'blame-ing' anyone just pass.

    and yet, for me, there was clarity in recognizing that 'the blame ( generally a concept that I avoid )' lies with the unvaccinated -
    each person who chooses their personal 'freedom' over their Responsibility ( and that is what this is - this is really not a matter of choice, it is a matter of Responsibility to others. )

    so. the "off-ramp" exists - it just is not yet expressed as Policy -
    maintaining personal immunity through vaccination and precautions. and

    from yesterday, I am not going to entertain the idea of 'personal Choice' any longer; this is a Responsibility we have to each other.

    ( please ) get vaccinated.


    I hope you have a good day...

    with respect. tj


    postscript.

    IF you want a tool that might have some effect, Require vaccination for access to medical care
    ( there are places where this is being implemented - no new patients without vaccination. and existing patients are being told they will have to find new health care, unless they get vaccinated. )

    percentage of care set aside for unvaccinated covid : Zero.
    Last edited by skiJ; 11-14-2021 at 07:52 AM.

  23. #16798
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    So a sheriff who refuses to enforce an EO, is he constitutionally disqualified?
    I don't know what constitutionally disqualified means.

    But a validly issued EO can have the force of law.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  24. #16799
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Sorry, but the individual responsibility thing isn't working and I'm sick and tired of waiting any longer. The reason we have laws is because left to their own devices most people will happily hurt strangers, a lot of people will hurt their neighbors, and some people will hurt their friends and families. So you can talk all you want about how it is important that people take responsibility but they aren't doing it and they need to be forced. And yeah, if judges ignore the law and substitute their own prejudices then I blame them. Without regret. History will blame them and condemn them like it judges the Justices who voted for Dred Scott, Plessy, and the internment of Japanese. If we have a future to look back from, which I am not confidant of.
    Yep. Hammurabi and Moses knew what they were doing. The dumdums need rules or they hurt their society.

  25. #16800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but we cannot vaccinate to herd immunity unless we require vaccines for almost everyone 5+ and I mean including boosters in the requirement. R0 for Delta is 7. For something this contagious you have to mandate it to attend schools like MMR. I'll show the math if you want.

    Vaccines stem the flood tide, but they won't dry the Delta ocean. They'll get us out of the pandemic and into the endemic, specifically in terms of healthcare impact.
    Re: the math, I found this pretty succinct (if potentially optimistic):

    Name:  440px-Herd_immunity_threshold_vs_r0.svg.png
Views: 451
Size:  192.5 KB
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
    with wrong ideas that appeal to you, though I am not unkind."

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