To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[abraham]

Mofro, is a vaccine specifically developed for Omicron a new vaccine or is it exactly the same as the three Pfizer shots I already got? When you say "Influenza vaccines are re-formulated each year to account for different strains" does "re-forumlated" mean the same thing as "new?"

Summit, if I don't understand what it is you are talking about, 90% of TGR readers don't understand either and just don't bother to admit it.



Yes. Why wouldn't you call this "new"? Anyway, like I said, it's semantics. If I replace "new" with "re-formulated" like Mofro used, would it make you happy? Or if rather than call it "new," we call it "variant specific vaccine" (that's what I've seen some articles refer it to).

What are you talking about? We're talking about developing a NEW vaccine tailored for a NEW variant. Yes, it is the same technology with minimal changes. But it is not the exact same vaccine that is currently being administered. In layman's terms, it's a NEW recipe. Stupid argument because it just comes down to your definition of new.

I'm not pushing buttons. You guys are totally clueless on how a huge chunk of the US thinks. 33% are unvacinated. This isn't some small, isolated, sub group. It's a third of the fucking country. 50% of the world is unvaccinated. Scientist may be very good at developing vaccines but they aren't so good at figuring how to convince Bubba he needs to get a new shot every six months.

Goddamn dude. Do you want a participation prize for thinking?

[wooley12]

altasnob arguing with mofro about vaccines is pretty damned funny. and telling.

OH THE DESPERATION!!!

[Kinnikinnick]

With all the willful ignorance and avoidable severe illness and death it’s some sort or miracle if all the emergency health care people don’t simply quit.


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[altasnob]

Every fucking year the flu vaccine is "different", tweaked to the most likely variants they expect. It's not a NEW flu vaccine that has to go through all three phases of clinical trials.. But, it's also not the exact same as last year either.. Make sense now?

Thanks for the response dumbed down to my 6th grade NYTimes intellect. When I read about Omicron specific vaccines currently in the works, they use words like "clinical studies." So I assume there is some kind of of clinical trial requirement before it is approved for release. If that's not the case, why don't they just release an Omicron specific vaccine today for those who want it? It's already being manufactured today.

[dunfree]

altasnob arguing with mofro about vaccines is pretty damned funny. and telling.

pst: it’s why people hate lawyers. To some what matters is the usefu
answer, not the right answer

[Summit]

Maybe a way to think about it would be a different version of a similar airplane...like how there are Boeing 747SP, 747-400, 74708, VC-25, etc. They're different, but not different enough to be starting from scratch....whereas comparing the Wright Flyer to a Dreamliner is a completely different aircraft...like comparing the polio vaccine and the mRNA covid vaccines...very different so the initial mRNAs had to go through trials but slight adjustments do not need as rigorous of trials.

I think you are going for the idea of an amended TC... less work than a new type certificate, but still a ton of work and there is a fuck ton more different between a VC-25 vs a 747-100 than there is between say the Pfizer mRNA vaccine and the tweaked version for Omicron. Amended type certs might be analogous to flu vaccine updates swapping strains, but this is out of my expertise.

Omicron evades the immune system (largely) by "looking" different and replicating quickly. It does this with mutations to significantly less than 1% of its genetic code.

Easier analogy

The "tweaks" for a COVID mRNA vaccine to make it target Omicron is more taking a new Audi that Car and Driver reviewed and NHTSA did crash tests on, then "tweaking" it by painting the car a different color, swapping the headlight bulbs, stripping off the badging, adding some LED accent lights and a window tint. It looks different, but it isn't a new car.

Does that car need to go through crash testing again? Hell naw!

[skiskiskiskiski]

Well, my turn to catch the kung flu.

Double vaxxed with moderna, woke up yesterday with fever, chills, cough. Added body aches to the list this morning. Took the monoclonal antibody today, so we'll see if that speeds things up.

Aren't we over the racial slurs at this point? Know any Asian Americans that have been treated poorly for no reason since this all started up?

I do.

[PB]

Yeah, just call it boomer remover like the rest of the world does.

like

[Kinnikinnick]

Well, my turn to catch the kung flu.

Double vaxxed with moderna, woke up yesterday with fever, chills, cough. Added body aches to the list this morning. Took the monoclonal antibody today, so we'll see if that speeds things up.

Why’d you jump right to the monoclonal antibodies?

How’d you get to the front of the line?


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[farmer]

Why’d you jump right to the monoclonal antibodies?

How’d you get to the front of the line?


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Our local hospital had them available. Right after they gave me the results they gave me a handout with the number to call if I wanted them.

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[skiskiskiskiski]

like

Double like

[Summit]

Farmer is majorly immunocompromised, is >65 and has a risk factor, or he has two risk factors for severe COVID.

Either that or the hospital needs to fucking share their Sotrovimab with the other hospitals that are out of mAbs despite more restrictive inclusion criteria.

[Danno]

pst: it’s why people hate lawyers.

Well aware of that

[skiskiskiskiski]

Farmer is majorly immunocompromised, is >65 and has a risk factor, or he has two risk factors for severe COVID.

Either that or the hospital needs to fucking share their Sotrovimab with the other hospitals that are out of mAbs despite more restrictive inclusion criteria.

Well he is a racist bigot. That's a risk factor, right?

[skiskiskiskiski]

Our local hospital had them available. Right after they gave me the results they gave me a handout with the number to call if I wanted them.

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Also, how come you went to the hospital for a covid test?

Were you having trouble breathing?

[Buzzworthy]

Also, how come you went to the hospital for a covid test?

Were you having trouble breathing?

My closet test is a hospital as well. They have so many services there. It’s really a nice facility too.

[skiskiskiskiski]

My closet test is a hospital as well. They have so many services there. It’s really a nice facility too.

Ours is begging people not to go there unless they have a life threatening emergency.

[Buzzworthy]

Emergency room and hospital sure. Other services still happen.

[jono]

why don't they just release an Omicron specific vaccine today for those who want it? It's already being manufactured today.

You're getting it. The first people don't need convincing, just a chance to volunteer. Phase I for safety and verify the dosing and move on. The volunteers become the proof anyway. (And they should be paid for that service, but that's another topic.)

The airplane analogy is a bit like fitting a substitute component: some stuff needs to be tested, but a lot can be skipped by analyzing what changed (or didn't). One difference in civilian aircraft is there is no added risk allowed--there's no way to justify that, so a new part has to be as safe or safer.

This is more like military aircraft where you can often trade some reliability for performance and be net safer--if you're being shot at, getting away faster is safer. There's a risk to not improving.

[farmer]

Also, how come you went to the hospital for a covid test?

Were you having trouble breathing?

Small town. Only place to get a test is the hospital. Testing was drive through in the parking lot across the street. Regeneron treatment was in a pop up building in the parking garage.

I had symptoms, but nothing hospital worthy. Oxygen was at 97% when they took vitals during the treatment this morning.

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[Tri-Ungulate]

Theoretical problem is that if changing the mRNA vaccine to address a new strain's spike protein (or functional equivalent that serves to allow viral entry into the cell), there's no guarantee the translated protein will fold to the proper 3D morphology that serves as a useful epitope for the immune system to act on.

Question mofro might be able to address is what are the odds of generating an epitope that leads to negative consequences?

[rod9301]

Trolling is someone who doesn't believe in what they say just to cause a ruckus. I truly believe it what I say. From the beginning of the pandemic, I thought our entire response was too focused on how to keep our little gated communities safe (i.e. the US) while saying fuck off to the rest of the planet. I'm a big picture, long term thinker. And the big picture, long term, shows that it really doesn't matter if 100% of America is vaccinated with a vaccine made for the dominant variant if Africa and other shit hole countries stay at 7% vaccination. And domestically, I want 100% to get vaccinated but question whether shoving it down the throat of the 33% who remain vaccine skeptical is the right way to accomplish that goal, particularly when we plan to CONTINUALLY vaccinate that 33%. There is nothing wrong with questioning the status quo.

Africa at 7 percent vaccinated is less of a problem than you think. Most very poor people in Africa do not travel, even tho the big cities in Africa, so the chance of contagion is small

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[jono]

Theoretical problem is that if changing the mRNA vaccine to address a new strain's spike protein (or functional equivalent that serves to allow viral entry into the cell), there's no guarantee the translated protein will fold to the proper 3D morphology that serves as a useful epitope for the immune system to act on.

Question mofro might be able to address is what are the odds of generating an epitope that leads to negative consequences?

Would this be more of a problem for SARS-CoV2 than flu?

Along similar lines, if producing an omicron-specific vaccine, is there a reason it couldn't be mixed with one for original or delta? Curious about the implications for Corbevax, for example: if they produce 100M doses/month and then come out with a new one, could the "old" doses be mixed with a newer version, or anything similar?

[wkd-rdr]

Small town. Only place to get a test is the hospital. Testing was drive through in the parking lot across the street. Regeneron treatment was in a pop up building in the parking garage.

I had symptoms, but nothing hospital worthy. Oxygen was at 97% when they took vitals during the treatment this morning.

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You got Regeneron treatment for Omicron?

[Mofro261]

Theoretical problem is that if changing the mRNA vaccine to address a new strain's spike protein (or functional equivalent that serves to allow viral entry into the cell), there's no guarantee the translated protein will fold to the proper 3D morphology that serves as a useful epitope for the immune system to act on.

Question mofro might be able to address is what are the odds of generating an epitope that leads to negative consequences?

Psst. Science was quickly able to determine the structure of omicron, and of course the virus also uses this same RNA sequence to produce its folded spike trimer, inside the human cell.
We don't have an issue with proper protein folding based on size exclusion chromatography and retention of Mab binding for any of the spikes we have made- now including omicron.

But remember, in order for that mRNA vaccine to work, we actually need to form a Spike trimer on the outside of the cell the mRNA is delivered to, via transit the ER and golgi apparatus. Unfolded and misfolded proteins won't make it through to get placed on the cell surface and are targeted to degradation pathways.

Ie, this is a non-issue.